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Old 08-27-2014, 01:52 PM   #16
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local dealers are way too high


my
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Originally Posted by CWO4GUNNER View Post
All this talk lately about the low cost (12000 BTU/$700) and simple simple DIY installation of mini-split ductless systems makes me want to get my garage air conditioned with one. Especially when I consider that the labors cost is almost 5 times the price of the product itself. I think Im going to pull the trigger on one of these and install it myself with full DIY video just on principal and in support of the DIY movement in this country. After all DIY is the American way.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0095V0OYM/...iglink20245-20

why dont you put up your shingle and pay for liability insurance and comply with all the government regulations local state and federal to operate a legitiment business?

My american way is to have a profitable business and support my family and do it legally and have pride in my work warranting equipment, taking care of my customer who give me the good feeling when they know I have put them in an hvac system- just like I would do in my own house.

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Old 08-28-2014, 01:54 AM   #17
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local dealers are way too high


Well you must remember that there was a time in this country way before the popular term DIY was coined that self reliance was part of the American culture and of course still is. This is self evident from our history when manufacturing of cars and appliances were and still supplement with public service manuals for the do-it-your-selfer. But yes anytime there is fear of a dollar might lost by a company or corporation there is always failed attempts to restrict The Peoples right to chose. But its been proven time after time that theory has proven wrong, for example the movie industries lobbied for laws for FEAR of free television destroying the mines of Americans, the television industries lobbied for laws for FEAR that VCRs would destroy copy rights, the music industry lobbied laws for FEAR of the recordable tape decks in the hand of the People would destroy their industry. So-on and so-forth, but every time let the record show that while there will always be Americans that chose to DIY, there will always be a greater number of Americans who love to pay for services, but its OUR choice and it YOUR choice, and its MY choice. If that ever changes it will be a sad day to be a citizen in this country.

Believe me...."WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR BUT FEAR ITSELF" (FDR 1940)

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Old 08-29-2014, 09:00 AM   #18
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local dealers are way too high


this is heading for the controversial board as it's a two way street. one could argue to go build yourself your own car, then. One could also argue that the American way is business, that's how we've come to this debate in the first place.

personally, I think it a combination of the two. I'd let you buy your own equipment (of course of which you did not build) and charge you 4k to install it, no warranty.
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Old 08-29-2014, 09:22 AM   #19
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local dealers are way too high


We all have so much to be thankful for in this country compared to the rest of the world. We should all think about that before getting off topic. Now where were we, oh yeah. I think I'll buy or build my own system and Install myself!
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Old 08-29-2014, 09:27 AM   #20
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local dealers are way too high


It is an age old debate but....

I installed (replaced) my system myself (well, I did pay a tech to braze the lineset together and start it up) and I have to say something is wrong with the economics of getting these systems replaced..... mind you I am not talking commercial which is a whole another ballgame.

Replacing an existing residential split system should not cost what it costs. That's not to say hvac techs are gouging, they are just playing in the game like everyone else.

My gear cost about $4500 (big system) the cheapest quotes I got for the exact same gear was $8500. It took *me* about 12 hours of labor all together to get the job done (and it *is* done right).

I would have gladly paid $100-$150/hr to have a tech do the same work.
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Old 08-29-2014, 09:34 AM   #21
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local dealers are way too high


If I didn't do things myself and dr
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Old 08-29-2014, 09:38 AM   #22
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local dealers are way too high


If I didn't do things myself, I just couldn't afford to stay out of debt, have a few things paid off, and maintain my rental units, its that simple.
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Old 08-29-2014, 09:39 AM   #23
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local dealers are way too high


It is an age old debate and if was not for the Internet and people getting an idea of what units cost the debate would never happen. I don't see debates about where a Plumber charges $100 for a house call and another $100 to change some 50 cent tap washers and people saying they are being gouged. Just the cost of hiring a Professional. How do lawyers and others justify their rates. It never ends. Just the cost of doing business or hiring people, has nothing to do with perceived " right or wrong".

We should be grateful we live in Freedom.

Look at all the crap going on in the Ukraine and Middle East. 1000-2000 year old never ending hatreds.
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Old 08-29-2014, 09:50 AM   #24
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local dealers are way too high


You said it Yuri. This could all be gone soon, so let's enjoy it while we can.

WHERE ARE THOSE INSTALL PICS YURI!
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Old 08-29-2014, 09:52 AM   #25
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local dealers are way too high


what pics are you talking about?
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:07 AM   #26
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local dealers are way too high


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It is an age old debate and if was not for the Internet and people getting an idea of what units cost the debate would never happen. I don't see debates about where a Plumber charges $100 for a house call and another $100 to change some 50 cent tap washers and people saying they are being gouged. Just the cost of hiring a Professional. How do lawyers and others justify their rates. It never ends. Just the cost of doing business or hiring people, has nothing to do with perceived " right or wrong".

.
i have no problem paying an hvac technician 100-150$ by hour for installing a unit, i have problem if he made over 2000$ profit on a 2000$ system like they all do here. If i was doing that with my business i would have no client at all (in industrial).
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:12 PM   #27
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local dealers are way too high


The HVAC biz is a kinda curious greasy biz.

1) It is a very feast or famine biz. You have to try make as much $$ in the peak seasons to cover the bad slow parts later.

2) It is a cutthroat dog eat dog race to the bottom biz with some hackers undercutting each other until no one really makes $$

3) It does not make most of it's $$ on repairs BUT the installs. My company makes close to 2/3 of it's profit on installs as you see where the profit is. How much can you make changing small parts like flame sensors or in the old days fan belts. Proportionally very little as compared to the installs.

Juts the way the biz is. Not much like a steady biz you may be in with a reasonable good cashflow and no huge peaks or valleys in profits.
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Old 08-29-2014, 02:31 PM   #28
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local dealers are way too high


To carry on Yuri's post if I may:

4) There is a lot more time and people involved before your "install day". All the pieces and parts and equipment gathered....the load calculation, evaluating ductwork, making sure that the DAY AFTER-everyone is happy. I might only spend 8-12 hours installing your job, but there can be easily 8 hours more you are not aware of.

HVAC is a custom trade integrating modern equipment into new and old houses--AND the original installer was most likely the lowest bidder.
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Old 08-29-2014, 03:28 PM   #29
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local dealers are way too high


People have NO idea what the biz is about

5) there are 3 or more distinct types of biz:

5a - honest biz that pays top $ and has licensed Journeymen and actually commissions and sets up the units properly according to the manufacturers specs etc

5b - HACKERs who slam it in and let it fly

5c - small independent guys who may be self employed or have 1-2 workers. Have to deal with the hackers and the dog eat dog low ball pricing

5d - large franchise companies like the "Clock" guys with huge advertising budgets and there own "way" of doing things.

So to say there is an Industry that follows any rules or is even vaguely homogenous or on the same page is completely wrong.

Beenthere, done that, been around the block too many times and have probably seen it all I have.
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:14 AM   #30
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local dealers are way too high


which is why I get the deals at twice the cost of others: I do not low ball, state out front I am not the cheapest nor care to be in a bidding war as if they are interested in that then instantly I am not available to the job, as education, experience, trust and building a relationship sells.

Yuri, I've sold a complete 3 ton plus all duct work including relocation to attic at 12k yesterday, a complete duct job today at 8k as well as a 9k complete 4 ton system today. All paid up front without want, need or desire to shop price.


My boss/owner of the company I currently am employed by is a nationwide hvac consultant and head of that committee, but he has nothing to do with it. It's all me.

Industry standards is the fact, sleazy or hack or whathaveyou are variables of the industry, industry set in stone, and equates and depends upon the individual at hand, the individual in front of the customer.

I make all companies look good and I've been there, done that and down here in the hvac capital of the world, standouts do just that, standout in this industry.

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