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Old 02-04-2011, 11:21 AM   #31
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Hydronic Floor Heating ??'s


The other way you could look at doing it might be a boiler like a prestige solo 110 http://www.triangletube.com/document...Literature.pdf

A buddy has one of these his daughters take hour long showers and never runs out of hot water. Gives you clear separation of potable water and heating water.

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Old 02-04-2011, 01:03 PM   #32
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No.. They don't.. I don't believe.. Yet they do tell you how to hook up and pipe a hydronic system the right way.. whether it be water heater or boiler..

Well worth the few bucks it takes to buy them..

:-) Ken
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Old 02-04-2011, 03:35 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Adam_M View Post
The other way you could look at doing it might be a boiler like a prestige solo 110 http://www.triangletube.com/document...Literature.pdf

A buddy has one of these his daughters take hour long showers and never runs out of hot water. Gives you clear separation of potable water and heating water.
Any ideas on what he paid for the unit? I know, too vague a question, for apple to apple comparison, but thus far, all the low fire condensating boilers I've researched are pricy...... (and difficult to purchase directly)

Thanks for the reference.
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Old 02-04-2011, 03:40 PM   #34
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Well worth the few bucks it takes to buy them..

:-) Ken
The K.C. Ament CO., Inc.
Books ordered.
Thanks again for the reference....
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Old 02-04-2011, 03:49 PM   #35
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Your Very Welcome.. Go to the Wall and check it out.. Great place to ask a question.. Kinda like this place I guess..

:-) Ken
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Old 02-05-2011, 09:52 AM   #36
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"Any of the tankless systems work well with radiant floor heating systems. OK with baseboard if there isn't much of it.. "

Have you installed a lot of these systems?

Tankless "water heaters" are not made for space heating...but they are cheap.
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Old 02-05-2011, 10:37 AM   #37
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Yep.. They put out a few gallons a minute and for a small system that's all you need.. Don't mix though.. Keep it a closed system..

:-) Ken
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Old 02-05-2011, 06:25 PM   #38
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Not the point really, but OK.

How many of these systems have you put in again?
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Old 02-05-2011, 07:33 PM   #39
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You DO NOT use tankless water heaters for space heating. That's laughable.
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Old 02-07-2011, 10:37 AM   #40
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I'm posting because on the topic of mixing DHW and heating water, I don't see anyone mentioning the risks/effects of pressure.
- House water pressure adds un-needed stress on the heating tubing. Right?
- Flex/cushion with all that extra heating tubing in the hot water system is going to lead to lower domestic water pressure. Right?

As far as heating & hot water with a single device... and obviously keeping heating water out of the DHW supply:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I've got a triangle tube for our (currently) single zone heating with a primary loop, but I plan on hooking up possibly and additional two zones: (1) an indirect water heater and (2) maybe some warmboard on a second CH zone for a poorly/not insulated front porch. (I'm on this forum looking for the thinnest possible option for warmboard flooring, maybe a combination subfloor+finished floor to sit on my existing tile pad.) My heating + DHW water setup would probably require (at a minimum): $3000 Triangle Tube Prestige Solo NG 110 , ~$1000 (or more depending on size) SMART indirect stainless tank-in-tank DHW heater, + ~$200/pump for the DHW tank or additional zones. (You could get by with the internal pump in the Solo 110 for CH loop if not using primary-secondary loop. That's a little more $$ than using the Triangle Tube Prestige Excellence that has a built-in "tankless" (or is it 3 gallon?) DHW. (I was afraid of that not producing enough DHW for us. I also don't like the idea of running possibly hard water through the heat exchanger. That's why I like indirect tank idea.) If you don't have a significant DHW demand, the TT Excellence sounds like a really nice all-in-one heating & hot water unit, which can really save some space. Maybe that could be the right thing for this fella looking to have a single heater for both his hot water and heating.
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Old 02-07-2011, 02:37 PM   #41
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Wow. OK I read some of the document: http://www.radiantec.com/pdf/Direct_...ing_System.pdf
I see they think that they've got a good design for mixing drinking and heating water. I didn't read the whole thing, but two things jumped out at me as items that would make me feel slightly uncomfortable with the entire product.

A) I found a new word or typo "willonly".
B) This following method to determine if a pump is running just seems laughable:
1. When the thermostat calls for heat, the pump should come on and circulate the heating fluid
throughout the system. The pump may be very quiet and hard to hear. You can improvise a
stethoscope with a toilet paper tube or you can place one end of a screwdriver on the pump and
the other end on a bone near your ear.

It seems that they are marketing to DIY folks, that are not even going to try to follow code or worry too much about the system efficiency. I could see doing something like this in a cabin or trailer, but there seem to be some significant oversights in the design:
- If you take a long shower, you've just cooled off your entire house. In fact, if you have <40 degree F inlet water temperature in the winter, you are REALLY cooling off your house while you are taking a shower. Stepping out of the shower onto the tile floor would be like stepping into ice cold water.
- The thought of using external water to cool the house in the summer sounds nice, but IF the water really is cool enough to cool the house, you better be prepared with a plan for the condensation that will occur. If you have radiators, you could put pans with drains under each, but if you've got a tile floor with heating tubes underneath, you are asking for one slippery floor.

Those two items above seem like they are inherent design flaws in the system that will probably end up increasing the costs (with temperature fluctuation and increased fuel costs) more than if you'd just bought a solution that can keep the two sets of water separate in the first place.

Neat idea. But I'd say "no thanks".
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Old 02-07-2011, 02:52 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Adam_M View Post
The other way you could look at doing it might be a boiler like a prestige solo 110 http://www.triangletube.com/document...Literature.pdf

A buddy has one of these his daughters take hour long showers and never runs out of hot water. Gives you clear separation of potable water and heating water.
If you are talking about using the Triangle Tube Prestige SOLO for water heating, then you must have an indirect tank to accompany the heater to act as a separate zone for the heat exchanger. TriangleTube Smart series indirect tanks look appealing to me (not just because I own a TTPS110 but also) because they claim to have a very large heat exchange area on the tank-in-tank design where the stainless internal tank holding the domestic water is corrugated. They also claim the internal tank will expand and contract with fluctuating temperatures to self-descale hopefully flushing out any sediment. I believe they claim to have a stainless exterior tank and a 20 year warranty or something like that. The ~$1400 for a 60 gallon or ~$1000 for a 30-40 gallon tank seems like a small investment for the next 20-30 years, especially when I know I typically replace $600 gas water heaters every 5-10 years due to corrosion anyway. http://www.triangletube.com/Triangle...t.aspx?CatID=6

Here's information on the TriangleTube Prestige Excellence that is an "all-in-one" boiler and water heater: http://www.triangletube.com/Triangle...CatID=1&PID=19 I think it runs another ~$1000 over the cost of the Solo.

I'm glad I've seen good reviews of TriangleTube products online, and I also like supporting them because I'm not too far from the US office where I believe the indirect tanks are made and the Prestige series are assembled. (I could be wrong on this because my boiler does after all say "Made in Belgium" on it.)
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Old 02-07-2011, 05:14 PM   #43
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And what are the benefits of using a tankless "water heater" as a space heating "boiler"?
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Old 02-07-2011, 10:52 PM   #44
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And what are the benefits of using a tankless "water heater" as a space heating "boiler"?
I'm a noob on this forum. So I certainly don't know. But...
- Is it possible that people mix up tankless hot water heaters with a wall hung boiler?
- Aren't tankless water heaters a lot less expensive than modcon boilers (in most cases)? Maybe $1000 vs. $3000? Wouldn't that be a big benefit?

EDIT:
I'd imagine that the constant temperature setting on a tankless hot water heater would either lead to short-cycling a lot, or having the system possibly not meet the heating needs. Is this why using a tankless hot water heater is laughable? Is it generally assumed knowledge that after using the system for a few years that the savings and added comfort you'd get with a traditional boiler would outweigh the savings you'd get from using a water heater as your boiler? Is that why the idea is "laughable"? Hey... I'm not doing it. I'm not even sure why I'm on this forum. I was actually looking for hydronic radiant flooring, the thinnest possible. The title of this thread lead me here.

Anybody know the thinnest options available for hydronic radiant flooring? Piping + finished floor? Or even know the minimum thickness I'd need to do this on my front porch?

Last edited by mknmike; 02-07-2011 at 11:03 PM. Reason: Added text after the "EDIT:"
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Old 02-08-2011, 07:40 PM   #45
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......

I don't see anyone mentioning the risks/effects of pressure.
mknmike, thanks for your responses. Pressure issues is not something I've ran into yet in my readings. Thanks for pointing out the possibility. I'll research futher.
B) This following method to determine if a pump is running just seems laughable:
1. When the thermostat calls for heat, the pump should come on and circulate the heating fluid
throughout the system. The pump may be very quiet and hard to hear. You can improvise a
stethoscope with a toilet paper tube or you can place one end of a screwdriver on the pump and
the other end on a bone near your ear.
I was bothered by this as well. While speaking to a tech at the company I actually asked the question, "Not to cut down your website, but isn't it a little too juvenile?" Their response was, we're trying to cater to everyone, including the lowest denominator.
It seems that they are marketing to DIY folks, that are not even going to try to follow code
I asked them how many permitted open-direct systems they had designed, as I figured most of the designs were for agricultural. They responded several hundred.
I showed the below pdf file to the permiting office today, and right or wrong, they saw no issues with it. I live in a city where the city proper population is better than 500,000, so I'd hope they know a little about right and wrong. I was actually surprised, as I expected them to say I needed to incorporate a heat exchanger into the system.

http://www.radiantec.com/pdf/ICC-ES_Evaluation_Report.pdf

- If you take a long shower, you've just cooled off your entire house. In fact, if you have <40 degree F inlet water temperature in the winter, you are REALLY cooling off your house while you are taking a shower. Stepping out of the shower onto the tile floor would be like stepping into ice cold water.
This was a big red flag for me. Questioned, they responded that with a hot water tap running wide open for one hour the floor temp would only drop one degree. Sounds optimistic to me, and I plan to inquire if they have proven data on this.
- The thought of using external water to cool the house in the summer sounds nice, but IF the water really is cool enough to cool the house, you better be prepared with a plan for the condensation that will occur.
I did some local research on this, and found that city water coming in during the summer months comes in between 50 and 70 degrees, depending on depth of waterline, etc. I don't see condensation as an issue here. Of course, I could be wrong. It's my understanding, the system only minimally decreases floor temp.

I have no idea whether this company is correct for my needs. Unfortunately, I fall somewhere in the middle of using toiler paper tubes for a listening device, and having licensing in HVAC, Plumbing, and Electrical. ie, a "professional" DIYer. At this point, I'm more curious about this system, than anything else.

In closing, here's a curious thought for the ones worried about bacteria in the lines, me included. Many of use take lengthy vacations. When we return to our homes, do any of us purge our hot water lines?? I don't. And I've never gotten ill. Nor has anyone else I've ever known.
Thanks again for any interest in this thread.

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