HELP! Carrier Weathermaker Infinity Not Working!

MaxPierre · 12-02-2007, 09:44 PM

Hi All:

This is my first post to this forum, and I'm hoping you can help me in a pinch!

For a while now, we've kept the registers on the first floor of our house (about 1,000 square feet on the first floor) closed both during the summer and winter because the upstairs is always hotter in the summer and cooler in the winter. I suppose there are any number of reasons for this, but let's get to the next point.

A few weeks ago, my parents left for vacation. After they left, I closed a few (but not all) of the registers on the second floor as well. Ultimately, I think two were open upstairs and the main one downstairs was still open (the main one downstairs cannot be closed. I did this because I figured that I wasn't going to be using all the rooms upstairs, so I wanted to force more of the hot air this (Indianapolis) winter into my bedroom while the parents were on vacation.

Well, after about a week of this, I woke up this past Saturday morning and noticed the house seemed cold. I checked the thermostat, and indeed it read about 4 degrees cooler than it should be. The thermostat also said it needed the batteries replaced. So I replaced them.

A few hours later, the temperature actually dropped another degree! So I started the troubleshooting process... I opened the panel to the furnace, and followed the directions of turning the furnace off and then on again.

I turned the thermostat off. I turned the power off to the furnace. I turned the gas off to the furnace. I waited a few minutes as instructed. I turned the gas back on. I replaced the panel. I turned the power back on. Then I turned the thermostat back on.

After doing this, the ECM Motor (for the inducer I believe) started purring, and then... nothing. About 30 seconds into the power-up, the ECM Motor stops. I followed the turn-off/turn-on procedure a few more times until I realized that the furnace was giving me error codes. I was given error codes "44" and "41". These codes suggested I check the filter (which was dirty but seemed mostly unclogged), and to (ding, ding, ding!) check the registers.

I went around the house and opened all the registers on all the floors. I tried the turn-off/turn-on procedure again. This time, I got a little more of a "response." That is, this time the burner at least kicked on. I thought I was home free!

But, the burner switched off and the ECM Motor stopped again. I tried a few more times, but ECM Motor stops about 30 seconds into the procedure, and sometimes the burner kicks on and sometimes (mostly) the burner doesn't kick on.

So, I finally bit the bullet and called a HVAC technician. After paying $89, he tells me that the blower is done. To his credit, he answered all of my questions. But when someone tells me the most expensive part needs to be replaced, I have to be a bit skeptical.

But he was convinced... he used some device he had and connected it directly to the blower motor. He tells me it had some sort of computer in it, and that the blower should have kicked on within about 15 seconds. The device was drawing the correct voltage, and the computer inside the device is supposed to be "good". So when it didn't get the job done, he diagnosed it as a bad blower/blower module.

The HVAC company will send out another technician for a second opinion on Monday. But, I'm in a bind. My parents won't be back until mid-January, and I'm facing a (potentially) $1100 repair. I've been lucky with the weather (highs in the 50s), so the temperature inside is about 60. But the temperatures will dip into the highs around 30 all week. I can handle the cold with a space heater, but the pipes and other stuff in the house may not. I need a solution, and I'm wondering if I need to find a way to pony-up $1100 for a repair.

The furnace is a Carrier Weathermaker Infinity, Model number 58MVP080-12114, Serial number 3997A02547. It is about 10 years old. Did I damage the blower by closing up some of the registers? I can't see how closing the registers I closed did this mainly because not all the registers were closed and the "closed" registers were by no means "airtight".

I check the fuse... it looked okay. The wires don't seem burnt. The burner kicked on occassionally, so the unit is getting gas. The ECM motor starts, so the unit is getting power.

Am I missing something simple? I hope to find a low-cost solution before dealing with the need to replace the blower. And if the blower needs to be replaced, maybe I can get a cheaper unit than the one the HVAC company will try to sell to me. But even if I buy it elsewhere, I'll still need the HVAC company to install it properly.

Assuming I can come up with the $1100, should I fix it, or have prices on furnaces come down to the point where I may want to replace it with an equivalent system?

Any and all of your feedback would be welcome! And thanks in advance for your help!!

UBoiler · 12-02-2007, 10:21 PM

Check Apex 4 prices. They have good web site. Good luck

MaxPierre · 12-02-2007, 10:27 PM

Thanks! I'll do that.

Any other "procedural" suggestions that I might try before buying a new blower? I don't know how to check voltages, amps, etc. But the HVAC tech that is being sent on Monday can... I can "kindly suggest" he check on the things that you folks can think of besides the blower that may be the culprit.

Things like wire harnesses, fuses, switches, debris, condensation, etc. Anything that helps me not having to dole out $1100 for a new blower (I hope that includes installation!).

MaxPierre · 12-02-2007, 10:30 PM

Can you give me a link to Apex? There seem to be many Apex results on Google...

mrkool · 12-02-2007, 10:31 PM

"Did I damage the blower by closing up some of the registers?"
"Am I missing something simple?"

Maybe, in combination with the age was probably what did it.
ECM motors are regular electric motors with Variable Speed Controllers
attached to the end of a regular motor.

Some can be removed and 110 volts run to the motor, then it acts like a
regular motor, but if you're not sure/able to remove the blower for some reason, then this information won't help you much.

Of course if it were me, that's what I'd do, and order a controller off the internet and replace it myself, but that's just me.

If a ECM motor costs $1100, then a new furnace will be $3000 or more
and controllers are a couple hundred bucks, major choices here.

Good luck.

MaxPierre · 12-02-2007, 11:16 PM

Thanks for the feedback... but I'm not sure if I understand your feedback.

You talk about a ECM motor that I can remove. But you seem to be referring to some sort of motor in the blower. The only ECM motor I see is connected to an inducer that vents exhaust. Is this the one I'm supposed to bypass in order to get the blower to work? Or am I supposed to bypass the ECM in the blower?

I can get to the ECM on the inducer, but I can't easily get to the motor in the blower.

Stubbie · 12-03-2007, 12:32 AM

Max I think you should disregard the last post lets start with the proper sequence of events when the thermostat calls for heat. I am going to assume this is a furnace with a hot surface igniter instead of standing pilot light. I am also going to assume you have an integrated control module. So to begin with follow this chain of events. checking each component for sign it isn't working correctly. If the hot surface igniter is glowing red but only intermittantly do you get a flame before shut down clean or replace the flame sensor, use emery cloth lightly to clean the sensor probe.

1.)The thermostat calls for heat
2.)Draft inducer motor starts up,
Pressure switch attached to the draft motor by a small tube will sense the negative pressure created by the draft inducer. The draft inducer motor runs for 30 to 60 seconds.
3.)Flame sensor senses heat from the hot surface igniter and the control module allows gas to flow to burners
4.)Gas burner is ignited by the hot surface igniter or the intermittent pilot. the process is the same regardless of ignition type with Ip it just lights the pilot then a flame sensing rod signals the control module for release of gas .

This is all coordinated by control module. It is possible it is bad but it isn't a 1000 buck repair.

If any of these things are not happening then it is a good chance you have one of the components in the above, specifically the hot surface igniter or flame sensor, that is in need of replacement or cleaning. You can clean the hot surface igniter but if it isn't getting red hot it is either bad or the control module is not closing the circuit to the igniter. The furnace will shut down if this process is interrupted by a faulty component.

No.... you didn't harm the furnace by having registers closed.

I also doubt seriously that you have a bad blower motor. The ignition process hasn't completed long enough for the blower motor to engage.

HvacWiz · 12-03-2007, 01:24 AM

On your circuit board you can flip dip switch #4 on, this is the emergency heat position, your furnace will run in high heat if there are no other malfutions going on in your furnace, such as a motor, but after reading your post code 41 does stand for blower out of valid speed range, we carrier techs have the little module that your furnace man used to see what going on with your furnace power wise. your icm motor comes in two parts the motor itself and the motor module. usaully only the module needs replaced which is half the cost of the whole assembly.

MaxPierre · 12-03-2007, 06:39 AM

The temperature has dropped significantly in the house overnight. That's not surprising... the highs over the weekend were into the 50s. The highs are projected into the 30s this week. I'm shivering as I write this, even though I'm sitting next to a space heater!

Stubbie, let's start with your post. I do have the thermostat calling for heat (please give me heat!). Then I do notice the inducer (the clearly visible ECM Motor) calling for a draft (or so I believe that is what it is doing). It spins for about 15-20 seconds before pooping out.

Sometimes I get a flame going in the igniter (once or twice), but I usually haven't in the many times I've tried to cycle the furnace since Saturday morning (over 15 times). We've had to change the igniter in the recent past (less than two years old and that component is still under warranty).

Having said that, I know the tech connected some sort of "module" directly to the blower. The module was supposed to have some sort of computer that, when connected to the blower with the proper voltage, was suppose to instruct the blower to come on no matter what else was going on. It was drawing the correct voltage (24V), but we got no action.

In his notes to his company, who is supposed to send another tech today for a second opinion, he stated that he believes the blower module is bad. I'm just not sure if I have confidence in a guy that himself says he's "not sure" what's going on and then tells me it may cost $1150 to repair.

I'm wondering if the fact that the furnace had already faulted before the tech used his "magic box" has anything to do with the fact that it didn't do its magic. That is, after the machine was reading codes "41" and "44" together, the tech applied 24V to his module and connected it to the blower. He tells me that this is supposed to bypass the fault and force the blower to come on, but it didn't. When it didn't, he suggested that the blower module was bad, but maybe his "technique" was bad?

Like I said, keep the suggestions coming! I'll ask the tech about dip switch #4, the emergency heat position. If the motor runs, then we know it wasn't the motor and maybe its the igniter again. Thanks, HvacWiz.

Mike Swearingen · 12-03-2007, 06:58 AM

We have a 1998 Carrier 4-ton hi-efficiency heatpump. We have had blower motor control module issues since Day One. We have to replace it every year or two. It happens so often (design flaw supposedly), that I keep a spare on hand (about $200) and have learned to change it myself. On my unit, it's easy. (That's good, because I DIY a lot to things, but HVAC isn't one of them.)
I just turn off the power, remove the side panel access to the blower motor and module, unscrew a few screws holding in the blower fan housing and motor and module, pull it out, remove the old and bolt on the new module, do the plug-in wiring to the new module, and reinstall it.
I cannot see how replacing the module AND the motor could possibly cost $1150?!?! That's a pure rip. It should cost much less than half of that for both, IMHO. I bet that you don't even need anything but that plug-in module.
Mike

MaxPierre · 12-03-2007, 07:28 AM

Thanks, Mike. I'll keep that in mind.

Any thoughts on why the tech's little thingamabob (module) didn't work to kick the motor on? If my module is bad, wouldn't the tech's module, with the 24V, kick on the motor?

So maybe the motor is bad? Or maybe the motor and module both? Where can I get such spare parts in Indianapolis?

Thanks... keep the feedback coming... it is only getting colder in the house... I'm so glad I kept the space heater!

Stubbie · 12-03-2007, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Any thoughts on why the tech's little thingamabob (module) didn't work to kick the motor on? If my module is bad, wouldn't the tech's module, with the 24V, kick on the motor?

Well you would think so.....Hvac wiz seems to be more familiar with this than I am and says you can run on emergency heat at dip switch 4. I'm not familiar with this function.

Also sounds like you have an igniter that lights your pilot then flame rod tells module to allow gas to flow. Sounds like your not getting that far into the ignition cycle. Can you tell if your getting spark at the igniter?

Answer this for me when you cycle this furnace will the inducer motor run for awhile before shutting down?

And your saying the tech can't get it to run at all with his bypass module?

That just isn't making sense to me.

The inducer motors I'm familiar with have a tube that runs to a pressure switch is that tube clogged or cracked?

All vent pipes are clear?

Also you said you fooled with the anticipator did you set it back where it was originally, cause you probably should.

MaxPierre · 12-03-2007, 03:48 PM

You asked:

Also sounds like you have an igniter that lights your pilot then flame rod tells module to allow gas to flow. Sounds like your not getting that far into the ignition cycle. Can you tell if your getting spark at the igniter?

I answer: I do not know. I know the igniter has "tried to do something" a few of the 15 times I tried to cycle the unit, but the whole furnace powers down before the furnace starts to "roar."

You asked:

Answer this for me when you cycle this furnace will the inducer motor run for awhile before shutting down?

I answer:

Yes, the inducer motor (at least I believe it is the inducer motor), will run for about 15 seconds before the unit shuts down and gives me error codes "41" and "44". Sometimes the igniter "tries to do its thing" but usually it just powers down.

You asked:

And your saying the tech can't get it to run at all with his bypass module?

I answer:

The tech can't seem to get the blower working using his bypass module.

You said:

That just isn't making sense to me.

I answer:

I'm not surprised... I'm not well-versed in HVAC technology. Did any of my responses above make sense?

You asked:

The inducer motors I'm familiar with have a tube that runs to a pressure switch is that tube clogged or cracked?

I answer:

I again fall back on my lack of HVAC knowledge... I don't know what you mean, and I'm at work right now so I can poke around to find what you mean.

You asked:

All vent pipes are clear?

I answer:

I believe so.

You asked:

Also you said you fooled with the anticipator did you set it back where it was originally, cause you probably should.

I answer:

I'm not sure what an anticipator is, but I make it a point to "reset" everything I changed during each cycle.

If that doesn't help, please let me know and I'll try again if you prompt me about what doesn't make sense.

Thanks to all for the ongoing help... I'm learning more about HVAC now than I ever have... it's too bad it's likely to going cost me big bucks in the process.

#CARRIERMAN · 12-03-2007, 07:24 PM

Hi MaxPierre

I am not going to scold you too much, but the failure of your furnace is do to your frugleness. This piece of equipment is designed to deliver a know needed CFM at a given static duct pressure. You have the best furnace on the market that was doing what it was told by the installing company to do. By shutting the registers off you literally threw a monkey wrench into the works. The more registers you shut off the higher speed the blower tried to turn to deliver the proper CFM. This drove the static pressure and amperage up on the motor and contoller. If you are having issues with comfort here is a tip that I give everyone with this style furnace. The blower on this furnace is designed for continuous duty. "OPEN EVERY REGISTER WIDE OPEN!", turn the blower on continuous at your thermostat. Make sure to use a good grade filter and change on monthly basis. You have learned your lesson on what not to do, try my suggestion and see if this helps. All it will cost you to run the blower continuous is about $50.00 dollars a year. If you want to know why, well heres the skinny. The motor your furnace uses is a 3 phase D/C motor, the module on the back of the motor that is going to have to be replaced is a A/C pulse modulator. Yes it feeds A/C voltage to a D/C motor, rather it pulses A/C into the motor. The rest of the operation would take me too long to type, but the jest of it is, don't be frugle when you have an extremly efficient furnace as this is. This furnace operates for mere pennies on the dollar. Contact me if the blower running all the time doesn't suffice and I will give you the next option.

Good luck
Rusty

MaxPierre · 12-03-2007, 08:09 PM

Thanks... you're probably right that my frugality got me! The HVAC tech that came by thinks the problem may be the control board having gone bad as a result. It'll be a $700 repair including labor!

But it wasn't really that I'm being cheap (at least I don't think it was). See, the temperature difference between the first and second floor was very noticeable... so we closed vents downstairs to force air upstairs and have done so for years. Once the folks left for vacation, I closed more vents to push more warm into areas I would occupy because it is several degrees colder upstairs than downstairs.

Oh well, lesson learned. And if it isn't only the control board, the tech tells me that they'd not charge me if I wanted to buy another furnace. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the control board is the only problem.

Thanks for the great feedback from all of you... soon I'll have warmth again!