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Irishking23 12-17-2007 08:28 AM

Hello from Indiana!
 
Hello from Indiana where it is cold and snow covered. I have a Heil 7000 high efficiency gas furnace which is about 14 years old and leaks water from the PVC exhaust pipe. There is a cuplike device in the PVC exhaust pipe which loads up with water and overflows its brim causing water to run down onto the floor. It is a nuisance to have water on the floor around the furnace area.

is it normal for this cuplike device in the exhaust to fill up with water and overflow continuously? a furnace man came out to look at it and he took the PVC exhaust pipe apart to clean it---he rinsed it out thoroughly in our utility tub. He said he could hear a float inside it and thought that was stuck causing the water to accumulate inside. After he cleaned it out, he reassembled the exhaust pipe onto the furnace but it continues to spill water down onto the floor. I don't understand why that cuplike device in the PVC exhaust pipe continues to overload with water. The furnace man said there shouldn't be that much water in it.

the Heil furnace model is NUGK100DH11 (Laverne TN)

what is the best solution for this problem?

redline 01-13-2008 03:06 PM

can you post a photo?

Irishking23 01-14-2008 06:54 PM

Redline
here are some photos

http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/g...aterJan11c.jpg

HvacWiz 01-14-2008 08:29 PM

No that is not normal, the condensate trap is plugged, but on the plus side at least the drain is right directly below the trap to catch the overflow.

Irishking23 01-15-2008 08:15 AM

after the furnace service guy glued the PVC exhaust pipe yesterday afternoon, the floor now has less water and there is no water building up inside the cuplike joint on the furnace exhaust pipe. I took 3 more photos this morning.
http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/gg303/Irishking23/

Irish

mgv79 01-15-2008 07:26 PM

screws
 
why are there screws holding the coupling on , that is an exhaust pipe, this will give the possibly to having exhaust gases leak into the house and possibly even moisture

Spike99 01-15-2008 11:39 PM

I'm a little confused of "exhaust pipe" explanation as well. Can you please confirm if the PVC pipe in question is an exhaust pipe or a furnace "intake" pipe.

If wondering, I have a "condensation / water trap" on my gas furnance PVC "intake" pipe and its exhaust pipe goes directly outside. And as per code, the exhaust PVC pipe (to push burt gas fumes outside) has a 1/4 drop for every 2 feet. Thus, any condensation that may build up in its exhaust pipe flows outside.

For my gas furnance "intake pipe", it is normal to get "natural" condensation inside its PVC pipe. Think of a warm pipe inside your basement. The furance sucks fresh (cold air) from outside - down this long pipe. When the cold air flows down this warm PVC pipe, condensation will naturally appear. Same reason why a person's eye glasses gets condensation when walking from cold outside into warm indoors. Its my understanding that all gas furnace "fresh air intake" pipes have a condensation trap - to stop the water from entering into the gas burning chamber.

To view the condensation trap on my gas furnance system, surf:
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ake-loop-3.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ake-loop-1.jpg
Note: The little black pipe goes down a small hole in our cement floor (which can't be seen in these pictures). Same downward drain concept as the formal water drain grill on your basement floor.

If you are unable to get your gas furnance water trap to work properly, perhaps the same "loop pipe" will work on your furance as well. My furnance has loved this loop pipe system (same concept used under sinks) for over 13 years.

Long story short... Your furnance needs a properly working "condensation trap" on its air intake PVC pipe. Definate must...

Hope this helps as well...

.

bigMikeB 01-16-2008 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike99 (Post 88858)
I'm a little confused of "exhaust pipe" explanation as well. Can you please confirm if the PVC pipe in question is an exhaust pipe or a furnace "intake" pipe.

If wondering, I have a "condensation / water trap" on my gas furnance PVC "intake" pipe and its exhaust pipe goes directly outside. And as per code, the exhaust PVC pipe (to push burt gas fumes outside) has a 1/4 drop for every 2 feet. Thus, any condensation that may build up in its exhaust pipe flows outside.

For my gas furnance "intake pipe", it is normal to get "natural" condensation inside its PVC pipe. Think of a warm pipe inside your basement. The furance sucks fresh (cold air) from outside - down this long pipe. When the cold air flows down this warm PVC pipe, condensation will naturally appear. Same reason why a person's eye glasses gets condensation when walking from cold outside into warm indoors. Its my understanding that all gas furnace "fresh air intake" pipes have a condensation trap - to stop the water from entering into the gas burning chamber.

To view the condensation trap on my gas furnance system, surf:
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ake-loop-3.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ake-loop-1.jpg
Note: The little black pipe goes down a small hole in our cement floor (which can't be seen in these pictures). Same downward drain concept as the formal water drain grill on your basement floor.

If you are unable to get your gas furnance water trap to work properly, perhaps the same "loop pipe" will work on your furance as well. My furnance has loved this loop pipe system (same concept used under sinks) for over 13 years.

Long story short... Your furnance needs a properly working "condensation trap" on its air intake PVC pipe. Definate must...

Hope this helps as well...

.


I know this has nothing to do with what your post is about but, I haven't worked anywhere that by code you could mix pvc and abs pipe as your piping does. Yes they make a special cement for that but, it isn't allowed by code in places I have pulled permits. The big issue with your type installation is the difference in expansion and contraction of the two materials, causing the joints to work apart. As for the trap being like a sink, that is an "S" trap and not code approved for sinks any longer either.

Spike99 01-16-2008 08:17 AM

Yes. The piping under a sink is an "S" shape. And the water trap on my gas furnace is a "loop piping" shape. You are correct is describing that physically, each piping is different. Very obvious to anyone who looks at each. However, the concept that water laying in a lower gravity position to stop "air flow" coming upward is the same laws of physics. Its a self contained NON-Mechanical trap in which the water is the lower gravity position acts as its own valve. One way valve for low pressure backfeed situations. Same "water level is its own valve" concept that is found under a sink - even though one is an "S" pipe and the other is a complete circle pipe.

My gas furnace install was installed my a licensed gas installer and passed local building inspection. And if wondering, the white pipe isn't glued into the black pipe. The white pipe coupler screws into special coupling - into the black pipe. Its pressure fitted. Thus, no glue involved (in that specific joint).

-------------------

For IrishKing (the original poster), please post a few "condensation / water traps" that might work on his gas furnace - as if installed by you. The water traps that you are most confortable with. After all, we're all here to share ideas for the original poster - to help with his situation. Being a professional HVAC installer, hoping you can share several different water trap brands (via URL links) that Irishking might use instead.

thanks.

.

bigMikeB 01-16-2008 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike99 (Post 88906)
Yes. The piping under a sink is an "S" shape. And the water trap on my gas furnace is a "loop piping" shape. You are correct is describing that physically, each piping is different. Very obvious to anyone who looks at each. However, the concept that water laying in a lower gravity position to stop "air flow" coming upward is the same laws of physics. Its a self contained NON-Mechanical trap in which the water is the lower gravity position acts as its own valve. One way valve for low pressure backfeed situations. Same "water level is its own valve" concept that is found under a sink - even though one is an "S" pipe and the other is a complete circle pipe.

My gas furnace install was installed my a licensed gas installer and passed local building inspection. And if wondering, the white pipe isn't glued into the black pipe. The white pipe coupler screws into special coupling - into the black pipe. Its pressure fitted. Thus, no glue involved (in that specific joint).
.

Not to bust balls but I am a licensed master plumber in NJ, sink traps are "P" traps, if you have "S" traps they must be pretty old and they are outlawed by code. The white pipe coming out the side of the furnace in the picture is PVC and yes it is glued to the black ABS pipe, maybe the top of the drain is threaded but the rest are mixed glue joints and they are illegal in all jurisdictions I have ever worked in. What state are in?

Spike99 01-16-2008 04:33 PM

Not to bust balls but you keep avoiding the question of the original poster...

What condensation trap do you install? Show us the pictures or URL. If the original poster has lost faith in their current trap, they can purchase/install the brand you use. Its a very easy question to answer (for the original poster).

Being a licensed master, this should be a very easy question for you.

.

bigMikeB 01-16-2008 04:43 PM

I install the trap that is brand specific for the unit that I'm installing, you can't just install any trap at random. Each manufacturer has a different design. I do however always install a tee close as possible to the furnace and install a trap made on the job from poly tubing to catch any condensation coming back through the flue piping rather than have it run back through the fan housing.

Spike99 01-16-2008 06:59 PM

Hey bigMikeB,

Based on your feedback, I did some "pocking around" the net. Was trying to find a picture of the RUUD 90 Plus furnance and its "factory supplied" condensation / water trap design. Thus, determine if my previous gas installer used the proper water trap - that came in the RUUD furnace box. As far as I know, they install what comes in their factory furnace boxes as well.

When my gas furnace was installed 14 years ago, it was installed with 2" ABS 181.1 piping and it was signed off a "passed" by Consumers Gas. Still got the sticker on the side of the furnance to prove it. At that time, ABS 181.1 - 2" black pipe was code (in my area). A few moments ago, I discovered ABS 181.1 is no longer used. Installers like to use a special pipe - that is even better then normal white PVC pipe. Something about a new ULC S636 level pipe. For more details, surf: http://www.ipexinc.com/Content/EN_CA..._System636.asp

Looks like I'll be calling my local building inspector (who I know by first name basis) to inquire if this new piping is for "going forward", or mandatory replacement on all previous installs as well.

Based on your masters certifcation, does this new "piping standard" apply to your region as well?

Thanks.

.

mgv79 01-16-2008 07:50 PM

636 pipe
 
as to your question on whether or not that pipe is going ahead, YES it is, that is the only legal pipe allowed on gas appliance that requires a plastic venting, this is in canada and i am sure it is a matter of time before it goes into effect everywhere

this pipe is much denser and requires a special glue as well reaming all joints, it is just a change that we made and it works great, we have found that we dont have drainage issues with them, like we did with black abs, even if it sloped properly it will still warp from the heat overtime and it will not crack, so this new vent system is a very good thing that they have come out with and i would recommend anyone thinking about to try it, in the long term your customers will be happier because there will be less issues with the venting in the long term

bigMikeB 01-16-2008 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike99 (Post 89085)
Hey bigMikeB,

Based on your feedback, I did some "pocking around" the net. Was trying to find a picture of the RUUD 90 Plus furnance and its "factory supplied" condensation / water trap design. Thus, determine if my previous gas installer used the proper water trap - that came in the RUUD furnace box. As far as I know, they install what comes in their factory furnace boxes as well.

When my gas furnace was installed 14 years ago, it was installed with 2" ABS 181.1 piping and it was signed off a "passed" by Consumers Gas. Still got the sticker on the side of the furnance to prove it. At that time, ABS 181.1 - 2" black pipe was code (in my area). A few moments ago, I discovered ABS 181.1 is no longer used. Installers like to use a special pipe - that is even better then normal white PVC pipe. Something about a new ULC S636 level pipe. For more details, surf: http://www.ipexinc.com/Content/EN_CA..._System636.asp

Looks like I'll be calling my local building inspector (who I know by first name basis) to inquire if this new piping is for "going forward", or mandatory replacement on all previous installs as well.

Based on your masters certifcation, does this new "piping standard" apply to your region as well?

Thanks.

.


No, NJ doesn't require it yet. I wish they did. The most common problem I see with installations in this area is improper venting. Not enough hangers, wrong pitch, improper termination, wrong termination spot. I was at a house last week where the installer ran the vent piping for two furnaces and a water heater into a storage room. And the utility room has no combustion air intake at all.
My company chooses venting material by the vent temp, we use sch 80 pvc, cpvc, ultra vent, b-vent, or stainless depending on installed equipment.


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