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Old 01-15-2009, 03:32 PM   #16
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Heating/cooling a wood shop


Sorry I forgot the link! lol

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...t_6970_595_595


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Old 01-15-2009, 04:57 PM   #17
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Heating/cooling a wood shop


Since you've not yet bothered to give us an idea of what your electric vs propane rates are, we can't tell you whats most cost effective. But so far all signs are pointing towards electric heat. You really don't need a HUGE heater, living in Tennessee and all.

Looks like electric rate is a little over 9 cents per kilowatt hour and propane is $2.75 a gallon. Given those, how in the heck do you determine which will be most cost effective?


Really one of the biggest constraints is your budget and exactly how much room you have available in your shop. You really need to make this decision yourself, IMO. You gotta be comfortable with the space your going to give up.

as far as budget goes, we're lookin at around $2000 to insulate and heat/cool. It looks like that will be plenty. With regards to space, I'd prefer to have something ceiling or wall mounted as 10' ceilings allows for greater wall space


So things to think about - probably electric heat, humidity control both under heating and cooling, get a humidistat on your wall, consider an exhaust fan for finishing vapor removal, consider an air filtration unit (along with good dust collection, not in leu of it), and decide how much room you want to give up and how much money you want to spend.

Have both an air filter and cyclone dust collector.

If you are clever and handy, it may be possible to dream up a custom solution, even using used parts, that accomplishes all those things.[/QUOTE]
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:01 PM   #18
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Heating/cooling a wood shop


Well the OP said propane is $2.75 a gallon. If the gas unit is 85% efficient, and electric is .15 per KW/H, we are talking about about $3.42 in electric for every $2.75 in gas.
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:09 PM   #19
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Heating/cooling a wood shop


Quote:
Originally Posted by hdgis1 View Post
Looks like electric rate is a little over 9 cents per kilowatt hour and propane is $2.75 a gallon. Given those, how in the heck do you determine which will be most cost effective?
Well I gallon of LP gas is 91,500 BTU, although the appliance will probably be 80% efficient, so 1 gallon of propane will really only produce 73,000 btu's. So you are paying 0.0038 cents per btu.

With electric, 1 kwh is 3,413 btu's. So you are paying 0.0026 cents per btu of electricity.

Add to that there will probably be first cost of buying a propane storage tank, as well as a service fee for filling it, and it seems pretty obvious to me, unless I've made a glaring math error, that electric heat is the way to go.

Frankly I can't make heads or tails of what pcambell posted. Someone check my math though.
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:13 PM   #20
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Heating/cooling a wood shop


I just did it backwards

but I was making up the cost per KWH, if it's .09 not .15 it changes it, and of course if its 80% efficient instead of 85, that changes things too.
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:25 PM   #21
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I got particularly confused when you used 15 cents per kWh when the OP stated in the post before yours he pays 9 cents per kWh

EDIT also, the efficiency dosent have nearly as much impact as you'd think it would
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Old 01-15-2009, 06:41 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Garasaki View Post
Well I gallon of LP gas is 91,500 BTU, although the appliance will probably be 80% efficient, so 1 gallon of propane will really only produce 73,000 btu's. So you are paying 0.0038 cents per btu.

With electric, 1 kwh is 3,413 btu's. So you are paying 0.0026 cents per btu of electricity.

Add to that there will probably be first cost of buying a propane storage tank, as well as a service fee for filling it, and it seems pretty obvious to me, unless I've made a glaring math error, that electric heat is the way to go.

Frankly I can't make heads or tails of what pcambell posted. Someone check my math though.
OK - is it worth my psyche to worry about how long it takes either type of heat to raise the temp say 20 degrees or which one will have to cycle more frequently to maintain the temp? As far as choosing the size, do the standard calculators on the net factor in all the info necessary? Seems that around 12,000 BTU's will work for the space I need. Is their an ideal size heater to get to handle these requirements efficiently?
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Old 01-15-2009, 08:37 PM   #23
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Heating/cooling a wood shop


Originally Posted by Garasaki
Well I gallon of LP gas is 91,500 BTU, although the appliance will probably be 80% efficient, so 1 gallon of propane will really only produce 73,000 btu's. So you are paying 0.0038 cents per btu.

Ok reedy to let your head spin?

LP burns at 80% so if you have 91,500 btu per gal you will only produce 73,000 btu. of which 20% will go up the chimney on an 80% or 15 % on a 90%

Remember AFUE (annual fuel usage efficiency) factors in an 80% fuel efficiency to start with.
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:22 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdgis1 View Post
OK - is it worth my psyche to worry about how long it takes either type of heat to raise the temp say 20 degrees or which one will have to cycle more frequently to maintain the temp? As far as choosing the size, do the standard calculators on the net factor in all the info necessary? Seems that around 12,000 BTU's will work for the space I need. Is their an ideal size heater to get to handle these requirements efficiently?
Well gas will warm it up really fast. Like if you don't go in there for a few days, then let it get cold (like 30 degrees), then you expect when you go in there that it'll be 75 within minutes of turning the heat on, then gas is your only option. It'll take electric several hours to warm up from 30ish to 70ish.

On the other hand, I get the impression you use the shop a lot, so the temp probably won't ever fall way down like that.

Gas heat will cycle more but that shouldn't be a problem.

Your question about sizing (programs) is extremely broad. No one can really answer it.

The 12,000 btu's you mention is probably the cooling capacity, not the heating capacity. That terminal unit, for instance, has an electric heater thats like 3.4 kW or something. So it has a cooling capacity of 12,000 btu then a heating capacity of (lol) 11,600 btu's. Maybe I should have done the math before I started talking about this. They purposely picked a heater to put in there that was close to the cooling capacity. Anyway...

I'd say a 12,000 btu cooling unit would do nicely. May struggle just a bit to keep the temp down when it's up in the 90's for a few days in a row, but it should do a great job of keeping the humidity out.

As for the heating capacity, I'd put in as much as you can (based on your electrical availability).

Frankly, I'm real close to ordering that heater from Northern Tool for my house (by house I mean garage workshop, same size as yours!)...
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:23 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Heat View Post
Ok reedy to let your head spin?

LP burns at 80% so if you have 91,500 btu per gal you will only produce 73,000 btu. of which 20% will go up the chimney on an 80% or 15 % on a 90%

Remember AFUE (annual fuel usage efficiency) factors in an 80% fuel efficiency to start with.
I didn't know that. Thanks for the info!

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