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bigrigin 10-18-2010 09:40 PM

Heat pump in Winnipeg MB
 
Hello

I am starting a basement renovation in a 1956 1200 square ft bungalow.
I am trying to figureout the best way to heat the house.
My furnace is about 20yr old. Nat gas, HWT is the same and the air conditioner is the same vintage.
One of the contractors I had come buy for a quote was really pushing one of the new heat pumps with a high efficient Nat gas. HWT will go electric.

I am also thinking of going electric furnace because my wife HATES NG in the house. Also Electric I can install myself .
In MB we have very low eclectrical rates. (I would have to look it up)

beenthere 10-19-2010 04:58 AM

Depends how much lower the electric rate is then the gas rate.

yuri 10-19-2010 06:08 AM

Electricity is not that cheap, they don't give it away here and it may go up if they build that new gen station and bi-pole 3 trans line. Far cheaper to heat your house with a high efficiency furnace.Extra $380 for an electric furnace. We also have 95 and 98% efficient furnaces which cost less than the 92%. MB Hydro data here:
http://www.hydro.mb.ca/your_home/hea...omparisons.pdf

Heat pumps are VERY VERY rare here and don't produce much heat below -10 which we get a lot of. Buddy will make a LOT of $$ on you if he sells you a heat pump ($1000-1500 more than a reg AC) and a high eff furnace. He is only looking at his sales commission and trying to sell his most expensive stuff IMO.

bigrigin 10-19-2010 07:33 AM

Thank you Yuri, I see you are from my region so I will certainly take your input seriously. Good link as well.
I was thinking of electric because I can do the work myself as most of my friends are electricians and I can get the electric from a wholesaler.Nat gas I will have to have someone else do it.
I already have a 200 amp panel and my wife has a dislike for gas in the house.
I have never heard anyone complain about the newer 98% eff furnaces.


The guy I had come buy was selling Bryant.

I will do more reading on here and try to educate myself some more, Great Forum

yuri 10-19-2010 08:28 AM

Too bad she doesn't like gas but show her the extra cost to use electric and she may change her mind. There has not been a gas explosion here in ages so she has more chance of getting hit by a punk in a stolen car than a gas explosion. I am sure she is not going to start walking everywhere.

Let me know if you want my opinion on the best bang for the buck combo. Insulating your attic to R40 and replacing the windows with low E argon triple panes will save you huge $$ and there may be grants for that.

ptarmigan61 10-19-2010 02:38 PM

I can share my experience with you, and you can go from there.
I live in a home about 10 miles east of Winnipeg.
1848 square feet, built in 1990. R2000, electric heat.
We bought it in 2003 with no air conditioning, so in 2004 we were going to put in AC. I had 3 k to spend on the AC, but got looking at geothermal.
We looked at the Hydro loan program, and ended up spending the amount we had for the AC on a downpayment for the geothermal. It is a vertical closed loop system with a Waterfurnace heat pump unit and supplementary electric heat.
The results are:
1) we now have AC in summer. No problem keeping the house cool in even the hottest weather.
2) we have never had a lack of heat even in the coldest weather.
3) Our annual cost is lower now than it was prior to installing the geothermal including the hydro loan payment.

Net result - we spend less even including financing, and have the AC to boot and given that rates have risen a couple of points since the install. When the hydro loan is paid off, we will still have the system but it will be even less money to run.
I have no basis upon which to compare to gas heat.
Hope this info helps.
I understand that there is also a tax credit program for geothermal heat now in Manitoba that didn't exist way back then.

yuri 10-19-2010 03:52 PM

Hopefully it works well for you in the long run. Don't see any of them inside the city of Wpg due to the fact you need a LARGE yard for the numerous wells and the huge upfront cost. Around $25,000 or more. There are some other drawbacks but I don't want to be negative.

bigrigin 10-19-2010 04:08 PM

Thanks ptarmigan61 good info but I do not have a large enough yard in Wpg to do anything like that.
Since starting this post I have found a friend that will install it for cash. He is a licenced gas fitter and his price includes the permits.He wants to install a lennox? I heard Trane was very reliable?

I am renovating the complete basement so it will include ,windows ,insulation, etc.(When I get time) I have just about completed the gutting of the whole basement and figure this is the time to upgrade. Ideally I would love to move the furnace as it is off to one side of the house and I would like to change the layout. Also I have installed new windows and doors up stairs with 3 rooms upstairs having new interior wall insulation.

Lots of planning and learning to do yet! Like figuring out the correct size I need. Suggestions and input extremely welcome by all.

I

yuri 10-19-2010 04:29 PM

The Lennox G61V (tried tested and true) and a XC13 or 14 AC is the best bang for your buck IMO. I work on all brands. Trane is good but their parts are VERY expensive here. Not sure why. No more reliable than the Lennox. I would go with a 70,000 BTU, G61V-70, and a 2 ton, 24,000 BTU AC. Lennox.com.

beenthere 10-19-2010 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuri (Post 519709)
Trane is good but their parts are VERY expensive here. Not sure why.

Cause its made in Tyler Texas.

And everything is bigger in Texas, including the price. LOL

ptarmigan61 10-19-2010 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuri (Post 519668)
Hopefully it works well for you in the long run. Don't see any of them inside the city of Wpg due to the fact you need a LARGE yard for the numerous wells and the huge upfront cost. Around $25,000 or more. There are some other drawbacks but I don't want to be negative.

No doubt there are drawbacks, and I wouldn't mind knowing about them, but it seems to have worked out OK for us so far. It's been running since 2004 withou any trouble.
We do have 5 acres and enough soild to go down 45 feet for the vertical loops, so it took less real estate than the horizontal ones would have. Still half or more of a city lot I would bet.
Nontheless, I just wanted to share our practical experience. BTW, gas was not available to us.

yuri 10-19-2010 06:40 PM

Make sure you get it serviced once a year to check the glycol level and freon levels and stay on GOOD terms with the dealer. Very few people know how to work on geothermals and there is a large turnover of companies who dabble in them but don't really know what they are doing.

ptarmigan61 10-19-2010 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuri (Post 519785)
Make sure you get it serviced once a year to check the glycol level and freon levels and stay on GOOD terms with the dealer. Very few people know how to work on geothermals and there is a large turnover of companies who dabble in them but don't really know what they are doing.

Thanks Yuri,
We have had it regularly serviced and inspected, and the firm that put it in specializes in them and has been doing it for years and is still in business.

VmarcV 03-14-2011 11:47 PM

This is the exact info that I was looking for. :thumbsup:

I have an offer on an older (60's) country home, price is settled (private) and papers should be signed by this time tomorrow. Big problem, no gas line and has oil heat. I was looking at geothermal vrs Electric...then I read about regular heat pumps. The regular pumps did not seem to be in the working range for our Manitoba winter temps, confirmed by this thread.

Seems that my initial instinct of a Geothermal pump is the right way to go.

Now to get some quotes from reputable dealers on an install.

ptarmigan61 - I am not sure how to Private Message on these boards, but I wouldn't mind finding out who you used for your install. I know there are a lot of companies popping up that do Geotheramal installs and I would rather see a solid history on a company before I made that kind of investment.

HVACDave 03-15-2011 09:40 AM

Hi Guys,

I do agree with most of the comments posted here. I also live in Manitoba and have had houses with both electric and gas heat. My previous house was all electric and I installed an air to air heat pump when the original A/C unit died and I was quite satisfied with it's performance. It did only make a usefull impact till about -10 C then I would lock it into electric heat. I don't think that was a bad way to go, as the input cost wasn't that much higher than a regular A/C unit.( as Yuri says, maybe an extra grand, but I was buying cost so it wasn't even that) But, for using in the spring and fall I found a good return over just the resistance heat the electric furnace offered.

My current house has a 95% Carrier varriable in it that I installed last year to replace the old Lennox whisper heat (78% model) and I have been very impressed with it so far. You really can't hear it running at all unless you are right beside it or you are in a quick recovery.

I did a project for a customer 2 summers ago who had electric radiant heat in his ceilings which crapped out so he wanted complete ducting and electric heat with A/C since he already had the 200 amp service. We went with a fan coil unit with 15KW electric heat and a 2 stage heat pump that is about 17 seer efficiency. This is not a cheap install, as this is high end equipment, and ibnstalling ductwork in a finished house isn't the fastest way to do it, but the customer is quite satisfied with his electric bill and very happy to have cooling in the summer. He claims that the heat pump is operating down to about -20 before it shuts off. The higher efficiency units are getting into that temp. range and operating well, it's just they can't supply the capacity required by the increased heat loss of the home at those temperatures.

I personally don't have a problem with the heat pumps as long as you can accept that they are only designed to give you full heating at certain conditions, and that they are a great investment if you are going electric forced air to begin with.


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