Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > HVAC

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-24-2013, 08:42 AM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 30
Share |
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


It's hot here. Silly hot. I bought the home last year and it was built in the late 70's so there is only forced hot air.. original furnace.

I called Lowe's for giggles recently. 9K for AC to be installed, and that was over the phone. Yikes!

Yesterday I had another company come in. $6400 plus the high voltage cost of an electrician (which I might do myself). The kicker is, $5600 if I give him the green light this Friday.

The quote states: New 4 ton condenser and coil, new gas furnace, make all necessary duct/gas/flu connections and low voltage wiring.

He didn't tell me which model specifically, I just remember him saying Lennox was more and this was an 80% efficiency unit. $1000 more for the high efficiency.

I called him back for model numbers.. awaiting his reply. Does this sound reasonable for a 2100 sq/ft home? All work except for the compressor lines will be ground floor work.

OmegaWS6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 09:30 AM   #2
Part of the Clover Leaf
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NW Burbs of Detroit Mi.
Posts: 1,107
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


Can't help you much on the pricing but I assume you have an oil boiler right now?

Four ton seems a lot for your size home, unless its as drafty as a barn. 3 ton should work even in the 90* days.

How good is the insulation ? How hot id your usually summer?

I'd get a 90% furnace, but even a grand over the 80% sound high to me.

Get your model numbers up so we can help. Even lennox has some low end equipment you could get for less at another manufacturer. You don't want to get burned on that.

hvac5646 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 09:51 AM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 30
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


Old unit is NG, as is the new one. I think the insulation is horrible. I replaced an entire wall (10x25) with new over the winter. At the corner one hand was cool, while the newly insulated wall was noticeably warmer. It has "energy efficient" windows but it seems without the trim on, you can see directly outside. Ive been filling in gaps as I go.

It gets hot here. 100's is not uncommon. The upstairs was 94 deg last week. My truck said it was 106 on the way home. Granted that was a heat wave, but we get some nasty westher here.

I found out it would be a Goodman setup. He did not mention model number.
OmegaWS6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 09:57 AM   #4
Part of the Clover Leaf
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NW Burbs of Detroit Mi.
Posts: 1,107
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


Unless it is a complete duct change out you are paying on the high side.

Make sure it is Goodman and not their junk GMC line.

Get a copy of your contract and post what they are going to do. I think you might be getting gouged.
hvac5646 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to hvac5646 For This Useful Post:
sublime2 (07-24-2013)
Old 07-24-2013, 10:00 AM   #5
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 13,983
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


Look at the Armstrong Air line of Lennox, stay away from Goodman. Goodmans sound like a jet taking off, the Armstrong outdoor units, you can have at least a decent conversation while it is running, next to it.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 10:05 AM   #6
Hvac Pro
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 9,219
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


asking for pricing info over the internet is like throwing darts at a board. ALL over the place. like saying how much should a car with a V6 and 240 hp cost. all depends on the model and features and brand etc. you should do a heat load calc yourself to properly size it as lots of contractors don't and use the old school ton/sq ft method. factor in that you may improve your windows and insulation soon and then the unit won't be oversized in a few yrs. if you can survive until Fall then the prices may go down as you don't want to buy AC in a heatwave as there is NO room for haggling/negotiations or discounts. if you don't take it at regular price they don't care as the next desperado will. some of the big box stores and SEERS add an extra 10% on top of what the subcontractor who installs it would charge if it was his private job. the premium you pay for them SEERS points.

http://www.hvaccomputer.com/gtarget1...Fe4-MgodPF4AoQ
__________________
"Cut it twice and it is still too short".

Last edited by yuri; 07-24-2013 at 10:09 AM.
yuri is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 10:09 AM   #7
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 13
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


You need to get several more estimates and while at it have them give quotes for the various levels (i.e. entry, mid and high end) then you will have a better idea of the price ranges.

When a company give a quote and say, oh btw if you let us do it now we will knock off a grand, that's a good indicator that something is fishy. Again, you need to get several more quotes.

Just One Man's Opinion.
Methodical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 10:45 AM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 30
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


Ok, here are the specs:

Condenser: GSX1348
Coil: ZAPF4860C
Furnace: GMH8100

I know I could be unhappy with this knee jerk purchase, which is why I'm asking. I don't want to buy bottom of the barrel equipment just to have a cool home ASAP. I was planning on dealing with this during tax return season next year.

No duct work added/needed? in the quote, just adapt what's there to new. My phone refuses to upload the pic I took of the contract...i'll keep trying.
OmegaWS6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 10:50 AM   #9
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 13,983
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


Well, Goodman is exactly that. Go for te Armstron Air line of Lennox , and you will be more than satisfied with not only the savings during purchase, but the fact that you are not throwing money out the door, like you would with Goodman.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 11:28 AM   #10
Experienced HVAC Tech
 
HVAC1000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 357
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll
Well, Goodman is exactly that. Go for te Armstron Air line of Lennox , and you will be more than satisfied with not only the savings during purchase, but the fact that you are not throwing money out the door, like you would with Goodman.
You should not be so quick to judge just for being a goodman. I have seen plenty of good mans that were installed properly and are very quiet. Good mans just have a bad wrap because some "genius" decided that anyone with a business license (no matter the trade) should be able to buy that brand of equipment thus creating thousands and thousands of bad and improper installs. You may not realize this but goodman uses a compressor made by copeland, motors made by Emerson, gas valves made by honeywell. But guess what, so does Lennox, so does Carrier, so does Rheem/Ruud and so does Armstrong. The biggest difference in the brand you choose is the warranty and color of paint on the unit. It is ok to dislike brands but try to say one brands brand new equipment is better than another brands brand new equipment. Because in this modern age the brands are all so close that without the badge on it you may not be able to tell the difference. And sure goodman has made some mistakes in the past but so has everyone else, remember the Lennoxs with the impossible to access flam rod or how Tranes leak so much.
Now don't think I'm just defending goodman in fact I don't even sell goodman, I sell Armstrong (Great unit by the way I think they are awesome) but if any brand was so bad that it could be judged without being seen dont you think the manufacturers would realize it and do you think any HVAC company would proudly sell and install it and put their sticker on it?
HVAC1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to HVAC1000 For This Useful Post:
ben's plumbing (07-24-2013), COLDIRON (07-24-2013), Ebierley (07-24-2013), taxmantoo (07-24-2013), yuri (07-25-2013)
Old 07-24-2013, 11:32 AM   #11
Part of the Clover Leaf
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NW Burbs of Detroit Mi.
Posts: 1,107
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Well, Goodman is exactly that. Go for te Armstron Air line of Lennox , and you will be more than satisfied with not only the savings during purchase, but the fact that you are not throwing money out the door, like you would with Goodman.
Dude you are hung up on the Janitrol days,

Goodman makes a decent middle of the road unit. We have a 16 SEER Amana in our residence and we have no regrets. Are you even in the HVAC business?
hvac5646 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 11:32 AM   #12
Hvac Pro
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 9,219
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


In defense of Goodman their entry level units are no worse than some other entry level brands/units like cheaprite etc. they will do the same job. the gsx line is the entry line and the ssx line is the regular line and quieter and heavier built. they have a deluxe line and it is with Amana. the equipment will work and won't fall apart it is just louder than some of the higher end more expensive units. you get what you pay for and not everyone can afford the higher end stuff. I put a basic Goodman in Mom's house cause it was priced right and she won't be there that long. works just as well as the others. 10 yrs ago they were a lot worse but now they are OK. Armstrong is quieter and heavier built but you pay more. depends on how quiet you want, some people don't care and others do.
__________________
"Cut it twice and it is still too short".
yuri is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to yuri For This Useful Post:
ben's plumbing (07-24-2013)
Old 07-24-2013, 11:53 AM   #13
Part of the Clover Leaf
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NW Burbs of Detroit Mi.
Posts: 1,107
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


Yuri is correct, The entry stuff is called GMC and the middle unit is Goodman.

I would put Goodman in all day .
hvac5646 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to hvac5646 For This Useful Post:
ben's plumbing (07-24-2013)
Old 07-24-2013, 01:50 PM   #14
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 147
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaWS6 View Post
Ok, here are the specs:

Condenser: GSX1348
Coil: ZAPF4860C
Furnace: GMH8100
1. If you don't need 80k output, you should have a smaller furnace. If you really need a furnace that big, it'll burn enough gas that you'll probably wish you had a GMH95 instead of an 80%.

2. Last fall I used more electricity running the furnace than I did last summer running window A/C units. I wish I'd paid the extra $200 for a GMVC95 instead of my GMH95, the reduction in blower power consumption would have paid for itself. They have a GME80 series that's identical to the GMH80 but with a high efficiency X13 blower.

Quote:
No duct work added/needed? in the quote, just adapt what's there to new. My phone refuses to upload the pic I took of the contract...i'll keep trying.
I didn't need any duct work, but I took out a 80% 100k BTU furnace and put in a 95% 45k. The ducts are bigger than my new furnace needs, but nowhere near twice as big. You should add up the CFM of your existing trunks and branches and compare it to the required CFM for that furnace and for 4 ton of cooling.

When I was gathering quotes for contractor grade equipment, straight install / no major duct modifications, it was around $1600 for an 80% Gibson furnace, $2400 for a 95% and a chimney liner for the water heater.
I ended up buying a Goodman online and doing all but the ducts myself, then put in an electric water heater instead of lining the chimney. All told the furnace, media filter, Vision Pro thermostat, water heater and wiring cost me about $1400, and I paid a contractor $300 to adapt the furnace to the ducts, add returns to two bedrooms and adjust the gas valve. So $1700 total with a new water heater and 10 ga wire to the water heater.

My one quote for a 1.5T GSZ130181 heat pump was $3700 with new thermostat and outdoor thermostat and I'd have to supply the 240v wiring and disconnect box. That quote lowered to $3400 when I told them I already had a dual fuel multi stage thermostat with outdoor temp sensor. I'm doing it myself for about $1300. (I've already got a vacuum pump, gauges, torch set and shield gas cylinder).

The problem with DIY is warranty. If Goodman shipped it to a dealer in Florida and it's installed in Michigan, there isn't going to be any warrandy no matter who installs it (unless the dealer in Florida installs it).

I've got a 1200 square foot house in Michigan. I believe my summers are comparable to yours and my winters are worse. I have 3.5" of fiberglass in the side walls, 1990s vintage triple pane windows, and about 5" of cellulose in the attic that I'll be adding a foot to. 1.5 Ton is already more than I need for cooling, and the 45k furnace is about 50% too big, might end up 100% too big by the time I finish upgrading the house's envelope.

You should get an energy audit, find out how large your equipment needs to be now, and how much it would cost to improve your house to where you can do the job with a 60k furnace and 2 ton A/C.

Last edited by taxmantoo; 07-24-2013 at 01:52 PM.
taxmantoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 04:27 PM   #15
An old Tradesmen
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 24,732
Default

Having AC installed in a forced hot air only home


I don't care for the GMH model. Its a 2 stage, that can't be controlled by a 2 stage thermostat. so you don't get the comfort you would from a thermostat controlling your staging. And giving you nice long run times.

4 tons for 2100 sq ft. Sounds like rule of thumb sizing, which will probably over size you. And make you pay more to cool your house then you need to.

Get more estimates. Don't fall for that, and if you sign buy X date, its only $$. Its a pressure sales tactic.

__________________
When posting in certain forums, knowing your location will help others give better feedback/advice/solutions to your questions.
beenthere is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to I legally pursue this home inspector? wzolla86 General DIY Discussions 28 05-15-2012 02:21 AM
History of Lomonaco's Iron Concepts & Home Decor John Lomonaco Introductions 0 11-08-2009 10:39 AM
NEWBIE- Looking to build my own Barn Home in Idaho LAWFISH General DIY Discussions 2 11-14-2008 07:43 PM
A facelift for your home Grumpy Remodeling 0 07-07-2004 07:43 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.