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Old 09-03-2009, 08:41 PM   #1
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gas furnace flame rollout


If I'm going to have it, when it will it show up?
Does it come and go?
Can I test for it about to happen?

The inducer motor works.

Last edited by Yoyizit; 09-03-2009 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:05 PM   #2
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It happens a lot if the heat exchanger is very dirty, sooted up and/or the draft thru it is poor. Or if it is cracked. If cracked it heats up, crack opens, fan comes on and blows air thru crack and hits flame and causes it to rollout. Overfiring, partially plugged venting, blocked chimney and other conditions can cause it. You won't see it coming. If the heat exchanger is very rusty, brown or black soot inside that is a red flag.

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Old 09-03-2009, 11:19 PM   #3
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Wanna see flame roll out? Drink a case of Labatts and stand in front of the furnace with the panel off.

i guarantee if you wait long enough the flames will roll out seeking the new source of methane gas.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:50 AM   #4
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gas furnace flame rollout


Besides the stuff I buy from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labatt_Brewing_Company
I had some more questions.

For a Bryant gas furnace, 397HAW060140, 4683C18923

In the factory manual there doesn't seem to be a flame rollout switch; can you post links to two or three typical types so I can figure out how they work and splice it in to the logic board?
Ideally I guess it would lock out the gas valve and sound an alarm?
Are these things prone to false alarms? Does the flame typically roll out for very short intervals?

For cleaning the HX, after disassembling almost the whole furnace, I'm supposed to use "4' of 1/4" dia. high-grade steel spring cable commonly known as drain cleanout or Roto-Rooter cable and a 1/4" dia. wire brush commonly known as 25 cal. rifle cleaning brush", and an elec. drill.
Should I use any solvents for this cleaning? I'll get this tool at an HVAC supply house?

I think this furnace was made in '82 so by my own stats it is on borrowed time.
What can I expect in its twilight years in the way of non-electrical failures?
If there was one instrument I should buy and one test I should run, what would it be?

Thanks, folks. I had the whole summer to work on this thing. . .and I didn't.

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Old 09-04-2009, 05:39 PM   #5
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Is that a 90% Yoyzie?
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:45 PM   #6
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Is that a 90% Yoyzie?
83%, upflow.
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:52 PM   #7
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I'm not sure why you want to do this procedure? VERY VERY few induced draft furnaces will ever need to have a heat ex cleaned. Furnaces that are neglected and starved for air get their heat exchanger dirty. As long as the burners were clean burning you should have no problem.The pressure switch is designed/calibrated by the design engineers to provide the necessary minimum air/draft for proper combustion etc. I hope you are not worrying about nothing. Post a pic of the front of it without the doors on and we can tell you if it is a "problem" child. When we talk about flame rollout etc it is because we suspect the poster has other problems than a faulty pressure switch, which in itself is rare.

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Old 09-04-2009, 08:07 PM   #8
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I'm not sure why you want to do this procedure? VERY VERY few induced draft furnaces will ever need to have a heat ex cleaned. Furnaces that are neglected and starved for air get their heat exchanger dirty. As long as the burners were clean burning you should have no problem.The pressure switch is designed/calibrated by the design engineers to provide the necessary minimum air/draft for proper combustion etc. I hope you are not worrying about nothing. Post a pic of the front of it without the doors on and we can tell you if it is a "problem" child. When we talk about flame rollout etc it is because we suspect the poster has other problems than a faulty pressure switch, which in itself is rare.
A pic without the doors and with the HX passageways visible?

That's good news about induced draft furnaces.

The factory manual talks about inspecting the HX for rust and soot and cleaning if necessary. I doubt it's ever been done.

The flames look blue, not yellow.

What made me nervous was seeing a video of flame rollout where the guy had to replace all the wires that had melted insulation.

BTW, I've heard of flame rollout switches that were either bimetallic or a fusible link. How fast do they respond?

I'm coming to appreciate how much effort goes into deciding if there is a flame and if it is "OK." Microprocessors and whatnot, patents on new ways to detect good and bad flames, passing 1 ľA through the flame, etc.

Given the age and that, since 1992, the overtemp switch, inducer motor and gas valve were replaced, can you say what is likely to fail next?

Thanks for helping me with this.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:15 PM   #9
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We need to see the burners and inducer so we can see which series and model you have. There are dozens of Carrier/Payne/Bryant variations over the years. Some of us can tell by looking at it if it is one that has ongoing problems by our experience. A flame rollout has to be ABSOLUTELY strategically placed or it won't work or will cause nuisance tripouts. Not a retrofit job. When we know which unit you have then we can probably tell you if the heat ex is prone to cracks and where.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:18 PM   #10
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We need to see the burners and inducer so we can see which series and model you have. There are dozens of Carrier/Payne/Bryant variations over the years. Some of us can tell by looking at it if it is one that has ongoing problems by our experience. A flame rollout has to be ABSOLUTELY strategically placed or it won't work or will cause nuisance tripouts. Not a retrofit job. When we know which unit you have then we can probably tell you if the heat ex is prone to cracks and where.
I'm on it.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:49 PM   #11
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The added electronics in 1090 & 1093 is used instead of a sail switch.

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Old 09-04-2009, 08:57 PM   #12
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You got one of THEM! YYYYEEEEooowwww! Ground out city!

Do your self a favor and get a new one. BBRRRR... don't know how many times I changed one part and the the whole 24v side went. Not one component survived.
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Old 09-04-2009, 09:10 PM   #13
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You got one of THEM! YYYYEEEEooowwww! Ground out city!

Do your self a favor and get a new one. BBRRRR... don't know how many times I changed one part and the the whole 24v side went. Not one component survived.
The add-on electronics?
It's homebrew, but it might be fried because the wife turned on the AC without asking me so the circuitry probably got way over 120vac applied to it, backfed through the blower motor.
That's next week's problem.
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Old 09-04-2009, 09:11 PM   #14
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Those are ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE units!! There is an extra circuit board for the inducer and as Clover said, when 1 screws up it takes out the other. One of my co-workers told me of a scenario where the burner can fire without the ventor (and rollout) if the pressure switch sticks or the relay on the inducer board sticks. That pressure switch has 2 sets of contacts and does 2 jobs. I had one where the collector box on the inducer rotted out and yours is probably getting close to that. That furnace is scary! Paynes are prone to cracking the heat exchanger cells right behind the limit control. I could find cracks in that unit with a 95% certainty. Get yourself a new furnace.

In Payne's defence, it was a good furnace for the first 10-12 yrs or so.

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Old 09-04-2009, 09:26 PM   #15
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Those are ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE units!! There is an extra circuit board for the inducer and as Clover said, when 1 screws up it takes out the other. One of my co-workers told me of a scenario where the burner can fire without the ventor (and rollout) if the pressure switch sticks or the relay on the inducer board sticks. That pressure switch has 2 sets of contacts and does 2 jobs. I had one where the collector box on the inducer rotted out and yours is probably getting close to that. That furnace is scary! Paynes are prone to cracking the heat exchanger cells right behind the limit control. I could find cracks in that unit with a 95% certainty. Get yourself a new furnace.

In Payne's defence, it was a good furnace for the first 10-12 yrs or so.
What Yuri said is what I was refering to, not your "add on".

That furnace sucks sewer water! Surprised it still runs.
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