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Old 01-20-2012, 04:00 PM   #1
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


We have a central heat pump.

One wing of house includes living room and kitchen which have large south facing windows. Other wing of house has bedrooms which feed of a long hall. Except for master bedroom these room are protected from wind, but don't get much sun.

The thermostat is a Visionpro IAQ and is located in the living room. When the sun is on the LR, it heats up quickly. If the wind is blowing hard off the lake, and it is cloudy, the room cools down. The thermostat will control this and keep that wings at a constant temperature. But the other wing is too cold when the sun is out and too warm when the wind is blowing.

I added a second temperature sensor in the bedroom wing's hallway. This area gets no sun and return air from just one room passes that location.

I can set the thermostat to use either location for control, or even an average of the two. I thought this would work, but it seems that depending on what the weather is doing, we have one side or other of the house too hot or too cold.

The duct system is not in zones. It has a U-shaped layout with feed in the centre. Both legs of the U heat both wings.

Any suggestions for a problem like this? At the moment, I keep having change which sensor is being used.

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Old 01-20-2012, 04:43 PM   #2
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


I would try moving the thermostat out of that space, and use a remote. Is there any way to post a drawing of the layout of the home with the ductwork also in the drawing. Also helps to have your location in your profile.

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Old 01-20-2012, 05:27 PM   #3
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


if you have a general return grill in the hallway the stat should be nose high above or around it,keeping in mind the stat satisfies from return air movement not space temp discharge.as your seeing with the solar in the living room
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:06 PM   #4
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
I would try moving the thermostat out of that space, and use a remote. Is there any way to post a drawing of the layout of the home with the ductwork also in the drawing. Also helps to have your location in your profile.
As mentioned, the thermostat allows me to chose which sensor to use or to take the average of the two locations.

If we use the remote (hallway) temperature and set tstat to say 66F. The hallway will stay at 66F. The living room may at times also be at 66F, but lower on windy days and on sunny days it may reach 74F which is nice, but increases the heat losses.

I don't have an electronic drawing that shows ducts and house, but basically, one wing is more exposed to elements. Windy and it needs more heat. Sunny and it needs less heat.

Compromise has been to let tstat average two sensor inputs. But, depending on weather, it takes human interaction (me ). I change sensor location to use on tstat depending on the weather! But this should not be needed.

Our thermostat and the remote sensor are at proper height and both see return air flow, but the LR one also is affected by the sun.

It may be that there is not much that we can do. Just keep the hall at an acceptable temperature and let the LR vary, or vice versa.
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:49 PM   #5
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


What about upgrading to a Ecobee, or other type of smart thermostat, that would allow you to use the Internet or iPhone or Droid app to control? The ecobee has sensors that would fit your need, along with a more robust system, than the visionpro. Also, how old are the windows, and how well insulated is that one wing? There may be some hidden issues that can be solved, especially if you can have someone come in and do a FLIR on the walls to see where air is leaking, etc.
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:38 AM   #6
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


Despite what the instructions of that thermostat says. Its not averaging when you only have 1 remote sensor.

Set it to use the remote sensor. And then set the stat's fan setting to either circ, or on. That way the fan will even out the house temp, and bring on the heat quicker so the room with the large windows doesn't get as cool as it is now when you use the remote sensor.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:44 AM   #7
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


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Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
Despite what the instructions of that thermostat says. Its not averaging when you only have 1 remote sensor.

Set it to use the remote sensor. And then set the stat's fan setting to either circ, or on. That way the fan will even out the house temp, and bring on the heat quicker so the room with the large windows doesn't get as cool as it is now when you use the remote sensor.
That is interesting!

The thermostat manual has 3 options 0,1,2 which it says allows choice of whether to DISPLAY internal, remote or average temperature. This it does. I just did it and the temperatures were 20.5, 18 and 19.

The remote sensor manual says that groups of sensor can be connected in an averaging array but that the thermostat sensor is not part of the averaging circuit (I believe that is what you are saying). It says to set the thermostat up to use an external sensor and that that temperature will be displayed. It says nothing about the averaging option on the thermostat.

The remote sensor can be used with various Honeywell thermostats. I wonder if they all eliminate the local sensor? Perhaps they may have changed this on later models?

The thermostat I have, is part of the TH9000 series. The EIM that comes with it does not even mention how to connect a remote sensor but does show it as an optional accessory. BTW, the tstat is a Visionpro, but is branded as a Mitsubishi. But other than some pre-programming done by Mitsubishi , it appears to be the same.

We have the tstat set to circ. It doesn't run the fan much. I could set it to ON. But with our ducts in a very cold attic, on those sunny days, the heat pump doesn't run a lot and the recirc air feels cold.

ADDED: Just did a search for current manual and it says:
"If an indoor remote sensor is installed, the display shows the indoor temperature at the location of the sensor.
If more than one indoor sensor is installed, the display shows an average of temperature readings from all sensors or an average between the thermostat and the sensor(s". But does it use that for control - that is the question!


Gregzoll - I don't know what a FLIR is, but we have recently had our home audited before and after upgrading insulation and infiltration. The house is over a closed crawl space with R24 spray-foamed perimeter walls where accessible. Normally even with outside temperatures very low, the crawl space stays at 7-12C. But, when it is windy, the temperature drops to 3-4C. The temperature sensor is under the exposed part of the house. There are no openings that I know of, but in Spring we will have to see if we can find why this happens.

Last edited by lakeresident; 01-21-2012 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 01-21-2012, 12:53 PM   #8
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


After reading through this thread, i have come to the conclusion that the best case senario would be to have your current system turned into a zoned system.
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Old 01-21-2012, 01:13 PM   #9
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


yep. all the sensors in the world are still not going to get the heat where you want it and to stay there. is the unit in the attic? zoning is quite difficult to install and setup properly so if it was my house I would just add some baseboard heaters in the cool rooms and run them off a wall tstat. it may cost a bit more to run than the heat pump but it extends the life of the heat pump which will offset the extra cost. I run one by my large kitchen bay window and even though I have gas and a high eff unit I am willing to pay a bit more as it makes the furnace last longer.
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Last edited by yuri; 01-21-2012 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 01-21-2012, 01:44 PM   #10
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


The stat's internal sensor is not used to average.
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:46 PM   #11
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


Quote:
Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
The stat's internal sensor is not used to average.
I do believe that is correct in that the thermostat sensor is not included in the averaging circuit.

We have only one, but if there were multiple indoor sensors connected in a grid, then the average would be based on those and not include the thermostat sensor.

When that grid (or my single) sensor is wired to the IN terminals of the equipment interface and we chose option 2 of the setup item 340, then the thermostat displays a different "average" equivalent to 50% thermostat and 50% averaging grid (or single indoor sensor).

I have done a test with this and get three different temperatures displayed depending on whether I chose 0,1 or 2 and these do correspond with actual temperatures. If those temperatures are different from the set temperature, the heat pump runs (or stops running) until the displayed and set temperatures are equal.

Wouldn't that indicate that when option 2 is chosen, the heat pump is controlling using the 50/50 average of (in my case) thermostat/indoor sensor temperatures?
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Old 01-22-2012, 02:01 PM   #12
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


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Originally Posted by yuri View Post
yep. all the sensors in the world are still not going to get the heat where you want it and to stay there. is the unit in the attic? zoning is quite difficult to install and setup properly so if it was my house I would just add some baseboard heaters in the cool rooms and run them off a wall tstat. it may cost a bit more to run than the heat pump but it extends the life of the heat pump which will offset the extra cost. I run one by my large kitchen bay window and even though I have gas and a high eff unit I am willing to pay a bit more as it makes the furnace last longer.
Yes yuri, the unit is in the attic and zoning would be very difficult.

We already have BB heaters and those of course used to work perfectly in maintaining temperatures even. The central ducted system is inherently poor at doing this. Out TV room goes up by about 2 deg when we sit in there with TV on and lights on. BB heaters would just back off in past and maintain set temperature.

I guess we just have to learn to live with the heat pump system. Just trying to come up with best compromise for setting which thermostat sensor location to use. And as you say, we could give up some efficiency and supplement using BB for comfort.

PS: See you are in Canada - This Canada-Only Mitsubishi Zuba is working as advertised - We have all BB heaters turned off and it has never run full out yet. Area being heated is old home about 1900 sq.ft. and we have had temperatures down to below 0F at times.
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Old 01-22-2012, 02:23 PM   #13
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


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I do believe that is correct in that the thermostat sensor is not included in the averaging circuit.

We have only one, but if there were multiple indoor sensors connected in a grid, then the average would be based on those and not include the thermostat sensor.

When that grid (or my single) sensor is wired to the IN terminals of the equipment interface and we chose option 2 of the setup item 340, then the thermostat displays a different "average" equivalent to 50% thermostat and 50% averaging grid (or single indoor sensor).

I have done a test with this and get three different temperatures displayed depending on whether I chose 0,1 or 2 and these do correspond with actual temperatures. If those temperatures are different from the set temperature, the heat pump runs (or stops running) until the displayed and set temperatures are equal.

Wouldn't that indicate that when option 2 is chosen, the heat pump is controlling using the 50/50 average of (in my case) thermostat/indoor sensor temperatures?
Your seeing the digital rounding the stat does.
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Old 01-22-2012, 02:26 PM   #14
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Effect of Wind and sun on house temperature


good for you! they are starting to make lower temp heat pumps and fujitsu and mitz are 2 of the biggest players out there with deep R and D development pockets. with the infinite speed ecm motor compressors they can unload them and do some amazingly NRG efficient things. I have a few cooler areas in my house and it is 2x6 walls, low e argon triple pane windows etc etc. unless you go full blown r2000 then no place is going to not have cooler/hotter areas.
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:27 PM   #15
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Your seeing the digital rounding the stat does.
You are likely right. I tried again and at present got 20/18.5/18.5 (Indoor sensor is on an interior wall that seems to be getting cold air from somewhere! Maybe fireplace masonry that extends into crawlspace.

Are you saying that there is should be no difference in the displayed temperature regardless of whether I set tstat to 1 (indoor sensor) or 2 (50/50) average and that that is what is wrong in manual?

PS: I know you have a lot of experience in this. I am just trying to get things clear in my mind! I tried asking Honeywell and just got a canned answer saying to ask my installer to change the setting! That is why I asked in DIY

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