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Old 08-09-2012, 04:33 PM   #46
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Don't need new lines for R410A. new line sets aren't made any thicker today then they were 30 years ago.

A new coil today, can be used with an R410A condenser 5 years down the road.
You would a new ine set when you change systems.

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Old 08-09-2012, 04:37 PM   #47
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You would a new ine set when you change systems.
I always recommend a new line set. but if they don't want to spring for it. i don't push it.
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Old 08-10-2012, 09:26 AM   #48
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Ever consider its a " legitimate contractor " who is out of the trade maybe not by choice (health,layoff,fired) might be the one selling it cause he needs the money?
It would still be illegal to sell it to anyone who does not have a valid EPA card. Most contractors who go out of the business let it be known, and sell off their inventory to other contractors (who will generally pay them more than someone on Craigs list).
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will also throw out that I think "most"HVAC guys will speak negatively about the easy/ super seal for the simple reason that if it were to be praised it would result in HVAC techs taking quite a big hit in income because recharge service is so lucrative and a quick as easy way to make money.
I think you over-estimate the greed factor of most HVAC businesses. Most are just simple, honest business people who are out to make a living (note: this does NOT mean make a paycheck). If they could make money with leak repairs, they'd do it.

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How big of a part does recharge work make up your business? I'd guess it's a good third of it!
I haven't been a "gas-and-go" guy for many, many years, so I wouldn't have that sort of information. If the system is low on refrigerant then I locate the leak, give the customer options on repair/replace, and then take whatever action is appropriate. Sometimes the customer says "I don't want to find the leak - just recharge it", and I do that, but I'm sure to note on the ticket where the leak is, and what the cost for repair/replace would be.
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Ex, 240 dollars for 20 minutes of "work".
Anyone would love to make $720.00 an hour!
You didn't count the time it takes to drive to your jobsite (in that $50,000 rolling truck), or the time to drive back from your jobsite, or the money invested in tools/equipment ... not to mention that the owner needs to pay the mortgage on the business, lighting, insurance, etc etc. I realize you've never owned a business, but you certainly must understand that there is much more to a service call than simply labor. The secretarial staff has to be paid, the CPA has to be paid, the laptop that was stolen last week (and ended up on Craigs list) has to be replaced - all these things go into the cost of a service call.

I do agree that anyone who doesn't weigh the amount of refrigerant being put into a system is likely to overcharge. Most legit contractors weigh the bottle and charge you accordingly.

Just don't compare all contractors to the one you ran into. Most are honest, hardworking people who are just out to make a living.

And it's still illegal to buy R-22 from any source, unless you possess a valid EPA card.

And you still didn't answer my question: How much do you think the tech should have charged for adding 3 lbs of R22 to your system?
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:57 PM   #49
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I don't actually disagree with scott. but technically anyone can by refrigerant they are just not allowed to use it. Stupid but the how the EPA wrote it. An unlicened person can buy it if they sign a paper stating they are buying it for resale. I can send some one to buy it at the supply house If I deem them a runner for me. I can sell you a jug to have for future uses as long as you sign that you will not use it and only a lic person will.
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:42 AM   #50
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I don't actually disagree with scott. but technically anyone can by refrigerant they are just not allowed to use it. Stupid but the how the EPA wrote it. An unlicened person can buy it if they sign a paper stating they are buying it for resale. I can send some one to buy it at the supply house If I deem them a runner for me. I can sell you a jug to have for future uses as long as you sign that you will not use it and only a lic person will.
I'd like to see some references for this, since that would potentially change the way many people do business. I don't see a distinction regarding "use" vs "sale", and in fact the EPA laws seem to specifically refer to the SALE of refrigerant, regardless of the eventual usage. From my reading, it's very clear:

This sales restriction covers all CFC and HCFC refrigerants contained in bulk containers

And later in the document:


The following people can buy any type of ozone-depleting refrigerant under this sales restriction (for instance, R-11, R-12, R-123, R-22), except for "small cans" containing less than 20 pounds of R-12:
  • Technicians certified to service stationary refrigeration and air-conditioning equipment by a Section 608 EPA-certified testing organization; and
  • Employers of a Section 608 certified technician (or the employer's authorized representative) if the employer provides the wholesaler with written evidence that he or she employs at least one properly certified technician.
From here: http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/sales/sales.html

Seems pretty cut-and-dried to me.

I agree that I can send a representative to a wholesaler to purchase refrigerant (like one of my service techs, for example). I could also send my wife in to buy it for me, or my daughter, etc etc - as long as it ends up in my possession for my use.

But from my reading, a wholesaler cannot sell bulk refrigerant to ANYONE unless they meet the requirements.

Similarly, it seems as if you (and me) could not sell bulk refrigerant (i.e. a drum of R22) to a customer, since that would violate the "bulk container" portion of the law.

I might be misreading, but it seems fairly clear to me. Others obviously have different views on this.

And please don't think I'm an EPA shill. I think it's one of the most heavy-handed, partisan, short-sighted, corrupt and downright evil machinations ever devised by that disgusting group of do-nothings known as "politicians", right up there next to the IRS (shudder). If it were disbanded today I'd dance in the streets (and that would be a very, very scary sight ). But for now, they are the ones administering this policy, and we have all agreed to follow those policies.
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:34 AM   #51
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The distributors don't have EPA lic but they sell it that is proof. Do you think Doc Michel has an EPA cert. ? I don't know if he does but I would not be surprise if he did not just to sell it as resale. It is sold online by online companys you have to send them your EPA certif or fill out a form stating you won't use it only sell it. If these are against the law the EPA could make some money on fines.



This link should go to the first web side which came up on a google search for refrigerant sold online. It is there FAQ page covers lic requirements. first FAQ what is required to buy? second lines say bought as re-seller to be slod only to EPA cert techs. Most of these companies will use this loop hole to sell to anyone. I am not saying that is wright or wrong. To be a re-seller IIRC they send you a form to fill out and presto your are a re-seller. But if I sell it to a customer to later be sold back to me or any other EPA lic tech sounds like the same thing to me.

http://www.r22.org/faq.php

Last edited by turnermech; 08-11-2012 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:39 AM   #52
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Arkema, Honeywell , Dupont , they should just sell direct. Distributors don't make anything with the single digit margins. Just a thought. All contractors want is lowest price - value & service removed from equation
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Old 08-11-2012, 10:30 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by turnermech View Post
The distributors don't have EPA lic but they sell it that is proof. Do you think Doc Michel has an EPA cert. ? I don't know if he does but I would not be surprise if he did not just to sell it as resale. It is sold online by online companys you have to send them your EPA certif or fill out a form stating you won't use it only sell it. If these are against the law the EPA could make some money on fines.



This link should go to the first web side which came up on a google search for refrigerant sold online. It is there FAQ page covers lic requirements. first FAQ what is required to buy? second lines say bought as re-seller to be slod only to EPA cert techs. Most of these companies will use this loop hole to sell to anyone. I am not saying that is wright or wrong. To be a re-seller IIRC they send you a form to fill out and presto your are a re-seller. But if I sell it to a customer to later be sold back to me or any other EPA lic tech sounds like the same thing to me.

http://www.r22.org/faq.php

you mean people can forge the paper to say they are a wholesaler so they can buy it illegally.
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Old 08-11-2012, 10:40 AM   #54
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The distributors don't have EPA lic but they sell it that is proof. Do you think Doc Michel has an EPA cert. ? I don't know if he does but I would not be surprise if he did not just to sell it as resale. I can send a helper to buy it at the supply house if he is a set up as a runner for me. It is sold online by online companys you have to send them your EPA certif or fill out a form stating you won't use it only sell it. If these are against the law the EPA could make some money on fines.
We're talking apples and oranges here, I think.

The distributors, like R.E. Michel, are selling BULK containers to you, the holder of an EPA card, for ultimately resale BY THE POUND to end consumers (i.e. owners of HVAC equipment).I would assume that resellers of bulk refrigerant (like "Doc Michel", who I assume is the owner of R.E. Michel, an HVAC supply house in your area) are licensed in some manner to purchase bulk containers of refrigerant. But they only resell bulk refrigerant - that is, you couldn't go into R.E. Michel and buy 5 lbs of R-22. You buy a 30 lb drum, for example, and then you sell it by the the pounds, since you hold a valid EPA card. R.E. Michel would buy that 30 lb drum from someone, mostly likely truckloads at a time, and resell it to you. They'd also sell it to your authorized agent (like your "runner"), since ultimately it would be managed by you (the EPA cardholder).

If you decide to sell that container to someone else, then according to the EPA site, you would be responsible for insuring the person who ends up with the container holds a valid EPA license. If you review the EPA link I provided, that's very obvious (see the last item on that link page). Whether you do this or not is up to you, of course. There's nothing to stop you from buying a drum of refrigerant and selling it in bulk to someone posing as a "reseller" (other than your conscience, I suppose).

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It is sold online by online companys you have to send them your EPA certif or fill out a form stating you won't use it only sell it.

first FAQ what is required to buy? second lines say bought as reseller to be slod only to EPA cert techs.
Exactly, and that's what I'm saying. Whether CoolGas performs the due diligence needed to insure that they're only selling to "resellers to be sold only to EPA certified techs", or to valid license holders, is a matter between Coolgas, those "resellers" and/or license holders, and the EPA. I don't know the CoolGas company policy defining a "reseller", of course.

If CoolGas is okay defining a "reseller" as someone who buys a single drum, then that is - again - a matter between them and the EPA. I think CoolGas would have a hard time convincing an EPA auditor that selling a single drum of R22 to Joe Homeowner, who works at some local business having nothing to do with HVAC sales, would constitute a "resell" transaction ... but that's just my way of thinking.

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Most of these companies will use this loop hole to sell to anyone
I suppose you're right, but the "loophole" is not really a loophole.

If you process a purchase on the Coolgas site, for example, you're asked to provide either your EPA license, or a Sales Tax license. If you provide the Sales Tax license (i.e. the reseller scenario), you're warned that you are obligated to only resell the refrigerant to a licensed EPA cardholder, and that by clicking the agree button you agree to comply with that obligation.

If you fail to live up to that obligation, and instead use that drum to top off your a/c system (and your neighbor's a/c system, etc etc) then you're violating EPA laws, plain and simple. And that's not a "loophole" - it's a violation.

And again, I'm not siding with the EPA. If they were to make the sale of R22 legal, and if someone wanted to shell out $500 bucks for a drum, then they could do what they wanted with it.

But at this point in time, it's illegal to purchase a drum of R22 for end consumption without an EPA card. Simple as that.
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Old 08-11-2012, 10:44 AM   #55
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I don't think they are forgeing paper work. I think it is just a loop hole. I guess I should say I have never seen the form so I really don't know what is on it. I just know it exisits. Resale is a vage word. I would think the EPA meant this for distributors, but if you buy only one can and plan to re-sell it they way the form is used it is resale.

My state tax number is my SS# I think everyone has one.
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Old 08-11-2012, 10:56 AM   #56
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I should also say, I don't buy it online. I have not sold any to any customers for future use on there systems, but I sure think it would be a good idea. I am not looking forward to the day when a loss of charge and simple fix means they need a new unit due to refrigerant cost. I don't try to understand the laws there are too many and I am not a lawyer. I only know what some are doing (selling on line with a resale form). this seems fairly wide spread if not allowed would seem the EPA would stop it or fine them.

We are talking about and orginazation that IIRC has a 10,000 fine for venting refrigerant and a 25,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of someone venting. At that rate makes me wonder why someone has not tried to turn themselves in.
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Old 08-11-2012, 11:17 AM   #57
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We are talking about and orginazation that IIRC has a 10,000 fine for venting refrigerant and a 25,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of someone venting. At that rate makes me wonder why someone has not tried to turn themselves in.
There is no reward. that was a thought they had, but never became a real thing. Mostly because of all of the false claims they would have had to investigate. And the first talks of a reward, where for $10,000.00, and it was suppose to come out of the $25,000.00 fine.

Do you know of anyone that ever got a reward for turning someone in?

The current fine is $37,200.00
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Old 08-11-2012, 11:30 AM   #58
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My state tax number is my SS# I think everyone has one.
They're referring to a SalesTax Exemption certificate, not your FEIN or SSN number.
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only know what some are doing (selling on line with a resale form). this seems fairly wide spread if not allowed would seem the EPA would stop it or fine them.
Just like what I said to the OP of this question: If those people are okay with willingly breaking the law, then there's little anyone can do to stop them.
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Old 08-11-2012, 11:48 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by scottmcd9999 View Post
They're referring to a SalesTax Exemption certificate, not your FEIN or SSN number.

Just like what I said to the OP of this question: If those people are okay with willingly breaking the law, then there's little anyone can do to stop them.
If you are a sole proprietor not LLC or incorporated this is you SS#. If that is all it takes to be a reseller it would not be that hard.


The real discussion if how resale is defined and that is probably left up to legal interpretation and to the lawyers. If it is defined by amount purchased than the one jug reseller would be doing so illegally. But resale is vague and I would guess that is the issue. Not for me or anyone to say why someone would want one jug to resell. An argument I suppose could be made for them thinking it is an investment and thinking they can sell for a profit at a later date. After all that is what many of us are doing. The online prices I saw while posting would not make that possible at this at least, but that is not for to say.


Like I said does not really apply to me so I have not studied the laws. I can buy as much or as little as I want.
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:56 PM   #60
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Does anyone have any pictures of the inside of an ac compressor that was cut open to see if in fact the superseal hvacr did in fact clog up and shut the compressor down? A contractor put it in my 80 year old mothers carrier/bryant ac unit and 8 days later the compressor locked up. I removed the compressor and cut it open and would like to see someone elses pictures to compare to mine. Needless to say it cost $3750.00 for a new unit. Can anyone help me out here?

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