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Old 04-21-2012, 11:10 PM   #16
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


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Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
so are we done?
Baloney.

A fused disconnect is a security blanket. Does nothing in reality.

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Old 04-21-2012, 11:21 PM   #17
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


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Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
Baloney.

A fused disconnect is a security blanket. Does nothing in reality.
Salomi!

Prove me wrong with facts instead of spinning numbers that every body knows but do not use.

I got documentation from Tecumseh, Copeland, Hupp (remember them?) and a dozen other REFER comp mfgr and thirty plus years of experience from Uncle to back me up..

And if the internal OL is so reliable, than why do they put heater OLs in motor contactors in larger tonnage equipment?

Make sure you Google this one too....

Last edited by hvac5646; 04-22-2012 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 04-21-2012, 11:36 PM   #18
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


Quote:
Originally Posted by hvac5646 View Post
Salomi!

Prove me wrong with facts instead of spinning numbers that every body knows but do not use.

I got documentation from Tecumseh, Copeland, Hupp (remember them?) and a dozen other REFER comp mfgr and thirty plus years of experience.

And if the internal OL is so reliable, than why do they put heater OLs in motor contactors in larger tonnage equipment?

Make sure you Google this one too....
fused diss connect does nothing....
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Old 04-21-2012, 11:58 PM   #19
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


Quote:
Originally Posted by hvac5646 View Post
Salomi!

Prove me wrong with facts instead of spinning numbers that every body knows but do not use.

I got documentation from Tecumseh, Copeland, Hupp (remember them?) and a dozen other REFER comp mfgr and thirty plus years of experience.

And if the internal OL is so reliable, than why do they put heater OLs in motor contactors in larger tonnage equipment?

Make sure you Google this one too....
Then post all your documentation.
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:09 AM   #20
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


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Originally Posted by carmon View Post
fused diss connect does nothing....
...except protect the comp.


GET ONE THING STRAIGHT..THIS IS ABOUT FUSES VS BREAKERS (THEY DO NOT REACT AS FAST AS FUSES BECASE THEY ARE MECHanical) AND NON-FUSED DISCOs AND WHY A PROPER SIZED RATING IS IMPORTANT.

FURTHER, IT IS THE ABOUT WHY THE COMP OL NEEDS SUPPLEMENTAL EXTERIOR PROTECTION BECAUSE THE COMP THERMISTOR IS ONLY TEMPERATURE SENSITIVE AND NOT AMPERAGE SENSITIVE.

Last edited by hvac5646; 04-22-2012 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:40 AM   #21
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


wow we you guys are losing it ..way to much info....its just a disconnect.not surgery.....in my area over 30yrs of service...i have only seen maybe 10 disconnects with fuses...the rest pull outs.....you can let this die anytime now
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:41 AM   #22
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


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Originally Posted by hvac5646 View Post
...except protect the comp.


GET ONE THING STRAIGHT..THIS IS ABOUT FUSES VS BREAKERS (THEY DO NOT REACT AS FAST AS FUSES BECASE THEY ARE MECHanical) AND NON-FUSED DISCOs AND WHY A PROPER SIZED RATING IS IMPORTANT.

FURTHER, IT IS THE ABOUT WHY THE COMP OL NEEDS SUPPLEMENTAL EXTERIOR PROTECTION BECAUSE THE COMP THERMISTOR IS ONLY TEMPERATURE SENSITIVE AND NOT AMPERAGE SENSITIVE.
why the caps... easy... you cant always be right
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:48 AM   #23
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


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Originally Posted by ben's plumbing View Post
wow we you guys are losing it ..way to much info....its just a disconnect.not surgery.....in my area over 30yrs of service...i have only seen maybe 10 disconnects with fuses...the rest pull outs.....you can let this die anytime now
o.k. .... it was asked if you are required to have a fused disconnect.... the answer is no..... you can put one there if you like though....
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:50 AM   #24
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


because the thread was already drifting from the original topic.

And Been's confusing (which had nothing to do with "Fuses Vs Breakers" and why thermistors make inferior current OL protectors)post about NEC did nothing but blur the original idea that my post was getting across.
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:54 AM   #25
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


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Originally Posted by ben's plumbing View Post
wow we you guys are losing it ..way to much info....its just a disconnect.not surgery.....in my area over 30yrs of service...i have only seen maybe 10 disconnects with fuses...the rest pull outs.....you can let this die anytime now
Been likes to debate but he does not like to lose.

Much as I like the guy he purposely tries to confuse and spin the issue when a debate does not go his way.
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:57 AM   #26
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


No spinning here. And no claiming of manufacturer documentation, and then not posting such documentation.


Post your manufacturer documentation.
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:14 AM   #27
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


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Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
No spinning here. And no claiming of manufacturer documentation, and then not posting such documentation.


Post your manufacturer documentation.
No, ..YOU prove me wrong...This topic is in every HVAC text book from Doolins to Modern Refrigeration and Heating...So you should have no problem Googling the topic to disprove me.



You do spin answers ...Case in in point: the question I PMed you about FPM in a residential RA application that had a standard formula..remember what you PMed back?....and i was forewarned you would do that cause...well..YOU know why.

Prove me wrong if you can with you documentation....than I' will produce my documentation.

If I am wrong you should be able to do so thru published material that already exists on the web.


Right now I am done with topic 'till you post the doc to back you up.
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:17 AM   #28
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


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Originally Posted by hvac5646 View Post
That has nothing to do with comp protection.

If a power supply is fused at both ends the one that blows depends on the impedance of the circuit. Does not matter which as long as one does, it's done what it was supposed to.

But I guarantee you that a dead short will NOT cause the internal thermistor to open. Since the operation of a thermistor is dependent on a resistance change to open the windings, it would not not react fast enough.


And, yeah, Been I know thermistors function on resistance change.
The thermistor OL was introduced to save money on an elctro-magnet or Klixon style inherent overload that is both amperage and heat sensitive.


Two types of overloads exist ..Thermal and thermal-current type. The second type is called an inherent OL because it senses amp draw and temperature.

Thermal type OL responds strictly to heat and provides POOR over amperage protection (as the comp gets hotter the winding slowly draw more amperage, slowly rising to thermal cut out).

Thermal-Current type OLs are designed to be current AND heat sensitive. They respond to heat and current changes and spike much more quickly than thermal protectors only.

The type thermistor we find in compressor is strictly heat responsive and not current sensitive. Short cycle a comp and it will draw locked rotor (assuming no start cap and potential relay) for several seconds before tripping on the internal OL.

Precious seconds that the windings are cooking away.

If it were a current sensitive OL it would trip almost immediately. But it is not.

They Comp mfgs throw the OL protection on the contractor. We have to provide properly sized fuses to protect BOTH comp and and conductors.

Thermal OL thermistors are just another way to save money on the manufacturing process.
" You mentioned dead short in your explanation, usually if it's a dead short it's dead weather you have a fuse or breaker, time to replace the componet that shorted." Nothing could have saved it.
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:18 AM   #29
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


I'm not posting any documents, since I didn't claim to have documents. Nor do I have to prove you wrong.

The thread will be much quieter now since your not going to post in it anymore.
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:20 AM   #30
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Central Air Condenser Disconnect


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Originally Posted by hvac5646 View Post
Been likes to debate but he does not like to lose.

Much as I like the guy he purposely tries to confuse and spin the issue when a debate does not go his way.

" I second that and agree with you 100%. And the last word forget about it."

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