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Old 10-17-2011, 05:32 PM   #16
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Cast iron vs mod/cons


Of course. I don't take the old boiler out assembled. I have to lay tarps, and be areful so as not to stain or mar the floor or steps in any way. Cause if I do, I have to pay to clean or repair/replace anything damaged. But no matter what, getting the old boiler out is a lot of work. 600, 1200 pounds of old cast iron still takes time to get it out. A new cast iron boiler weighing at 450 or less is easier to get down then it is to take out.


I've taken out a few hundred cast iron boilers over the years.

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Old 10-18-2011, 09:58 AM   #17
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Old 10-18-2011, 12:52 PM   #18
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Rob at NRT. I just noticed your posting. Somehow I missed it.

And for the record you design systems, the need which would diminish if everyone had an 85% cast iron boiler and buffer tank.

With regard to:

1a. Prove it, as a couple of boiler manufacturers have now said that cast iron boilers are more cost effective to the consumer over the long term when taking into account all costs.
1b. Please explain what you are trying to say.
1c. There are all kinds of sealed combustion cast iron boilers out there that minimize the use of technology (technology being the number one reason for bad installs, part failure and a nightmare because repairmen cannot keep up with the technology and all the variations in technology). Here are two sealed combustion gas fired boilers.

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/our-pr...boiler-gv.aspx

http://www.usboiler.net/products/boilers/pvg-scg/

Rob, I will explain. The Burnham boiler SCG is a sealed combustion boiler, as the combustion is sealed from the home heating envelope. You can see it in writing at the above link. It brings the air in thru one vent, burns the gas, and then sends it out the double-walled metal flue. In my house, I can do this with one 6" by 6" penetration, which even heats the incoming air. Still here Bill? There is no air "pulled from the envelope." Rob, it seems I just took my 10-15% back, which you wrongfully took from me.

2a. And my living in Chicago, the odds are exceedingly high that it would be a bad install. And just imagine trying to find a guy who knows how to fix a techno boiler 15-30 years out when there will be hundreds if not more than 1,000 variations of how they work. A gas valve, a high-limit switch, a thermocouple and motor relay are looking like a pretty safe bet to me.
2b. Are they making cast iron out of something else today?
2c. Did you install your cast iron boiler, yourself? Or was it the high-limit switch that went bad, and you used that as an excuse with your wife to install the Triangle Tube you had wet dreams about? Or more likely, was your boiler installed when boiler companies mistakenly went for Chinese junk about that time.

3. Rob, it is a shame you don't sell Insul-Tarp because I think it is a great product, and chose it over foam board. I also understand heat transfer whether it is by conduction, convection or radiation. That is why I like hot water heat. While foam board has a somewhat higher R-Rating than Insul-Tarp, you can buy a single unit of Insul-Tarp that covers 575 square feet which would take 18 sheets of foam board. I am sure there is no break in the 138 feet of joints in the foam board in the same 575 square feet. Foamboard is fragile and none of it ever gets damaged by those concrete pouring warriors? I chose Insul-Tarp over foam board because it is only 1/2" thick, delivers a R-5.9, comes in large sizes, has a reflective face and can't be easily damaged by the concrete crew. And, I wonder why it is required to install a vapor barrier with foam board? It must not be doing something right (like all those joints???) Insul-Tarp was the perfect product for not losing 2" of ceiling space in my 84" high basement ceiling. As far as performance, it does great. My basement floor is at or above the frost line (48" and our building department now says footings must be 5' now in my area), but the unheated floor has a neutral feel to it. It is anything but cold, so I would say it performs. At 0 f outside, the temperature down there hovers at 68-70f, and at -17f outside, it was 64f one foot off the floor. My only heat is heat thrown from the boiler, hot water heater, and piping. And what about the heating contractors that have reported back to the company that the Insul-Tarp brings the floor up to temperature twice as fast as their installs using 2" of foam board? It seems to me if it does that, it is doing an overall better job, despite it lower R value.

Rob, maybe you can explain why my basement stays close to 70 degrees fahrenheit when it is zero degrees outside, with my floor feeling neutral, only a boiler, water heater and piping, and basement walls that are 40% out of the ground, and the earth at floor level being 32 degrees??????????????????

Other advantages of the product:

http://www.insulationsolutions.com/p...rp_v_foam.html

I would buy the product again, and put down two layers in lieu of one and cross lap them. It is one technology item that won't break or lose its effectiveness with age. And by the way, show me the research (modcon v. cast iron AND foam board v Insul-Tarp).

Quack, quack.

Last edited by rickmay; 10-18-2011 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:44 PM   #19
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Cast iron vs mod/cons


Our heating season started near the beginning of September and it was in the low forties most nights. Currently, it is 49 degrees outside, and I took my basement thermometer and laid it on my unheated concrete floor for forty minutes, and put the sensor facing the floor. It was 69.8 degrees 4' up in the air and it was 69.8 degrees face down on the concrete. Insul-Tarp must be doing something.
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Old 10-18-2011, 05:01 PM   #20
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Something just came to me, an epiphany, if you like.

Beenthere, I bet one of the UNIONS is paying you to sit at your computer and put dis-information out in cyberspace to keep the dream of efficiency alive. For what other reason would someone make 12,000+ posts over such a short period of time? Or, maybe, with you guys all seeing cast iron making a comeback, you all are required to spend an hour of your off-time beating cast iron back into the ground. If I installed a lot of systems, it sure would be nice to move a 120 pound techno rather than, to use your words of yesterday, a "600, 1200 pounds of old cast iron still takes time to get it out." In your case, you have 20 more years of doing this, and it must scare you to death if you had to go back to lugging iron.

You have made a number of statements on this thread that are just not true. You need to go back to school or be honest about why you have made so many posts. Doc Holiday, you watching? I may be on another rant. Some of Beenthere's statements include the following:

"A properly sized modcon doesn't need a wasteful buffer tank."

In discussing a buffer tank, you stated "New cast iron boilers save the customer money by not having to heat up 100 gallons of water every time the thermostat calls for heat."

"Buffer tanks don't save money on heating cost. Their used as a security blanket for over sized boilers. "

I realize that I have only been studying this for a year or so, and on and off, but I ain't no wackoo, Rob. So, I am going to echo the words of an engineer that teaches installers about heating, and he works for one of the largest and oldest companies in your business. Some of his statements to me have included:

* A modcon does not save much money on an old system with large radiators. HIS WORDS, NOT MINE.

* Most of the savings accrued to savings on updating a home comes from the controls (not the boiler) that have come to the market in the last 15 years.

* Buffer tanks save money and they protect the boiler.

* A buffer tank is a plus to any system, including a modcon or condensing boiler.

My answer to the statements made in blue above. Saying a buffer tank is "wasteful" is a sure lack of knowledge, at least a gross misstatement. How wasteful is it if you use it to heat a room, or in my case, my basement? I just bet everyone reading this thread will recognize this is not one bit wasteful. But, let's keep going here. If I remember correctly, one of my small radiators (five feet long, about 20"H x 9+"wide and 20 sections long with 6 tubes each, puts out about 5,800 btus (with less than 10 gallons of water). This radiator, if I remember, has 62 square feet of radiation. Square feet of radiation is directly proportional to the btus it can put out. And, output can be increased or decreased by changing the water temperature. I believe the 5,800 btus is based on 180 degree water for the coldest day. Now, look at an UNINSULATED 80 GALLON buffer tank. It has around 30 square feet of surface, so it puts out half of the 5,800 btu radiator or 2,900 btus. That is only 3% of of my total design load. You can also buy a buffer with 2" of insulation which would cut that in half or 1.5%. You can really see that I am fretting over the waste here. In my case, I lose ZERO. But what if you can't use its heat? I imagine that doesn't happen much. Beenthere, you want everyone to believe that every time you get a call for heat, you "to heat up 100 gallons of water every time." This is garbage, and you know it, or should know it. With small water capacity zones, the boiler will be off for most of those calls. AND, according to the engineer, all this cycling wastes the money and it is hard on the equipment. A buffer tank is controlled by an aquastat in one form or another. You can set it to turn off the boiler when the water reaches 150, and put a 20 degree differential on it, and the boiler will come on when the temp in the tank reaches 130. Small zones could go on and off 5 or 10 or more times and the boiler will not come on until the tank reaches the 130. I am not suggesting that one use these temperatures, but using it as an example how the buffer can work for you. I imagine that anyone considering this can easily see that if the boiler comes on 1/10 or 1/5 or even 1/3 of the time, it will last a lot longer. Even a 105,000 modcon that modulates down to 25,000 btus can have a demand for heat that is only a couple of thousand of btus or less in warmer months, so even it out-produces the demand, and it will turn itself on and off a lot more. And the more a boiler, any boiler, goes on and off, the more money goes up the chimney. Everytime your modcon goes on and off, it purges the flue along with the heat. Buffers save money. And, they do it by adding volume. According to a website operated by a retired installer, "buffer tanks save you money and decrease maintenance." I am looking at his website now, and he says they have been making a comeback in the last 10 years. I guess when the lugging stops, the truth starts.

You also said about buffer tanks Their used as a security blanket for over sized boilers. No, a system or a boiler bypass was created to do that long before the buffer tank. A buffer tank was devised to save money, BUT it also can protect the boiler. Why would anyone want to drag a 170 pound buffer tank down the stairs when a one or two pound valve and a couple feet of pipe (a boiler bypass) do the same job?

I am just reminded of a conversation I had a year ago with one of the technical advisors at Burnham. He was retiring, and he told me that he was going to install to 80% boilers in his home. I just wonder why.

Bill, I will tell you. One can buy two 80% boilers and a buffer tank for the price of a modcon, and it will about rival the modcon in its gas usage, BUT it will also give you a backup boiler, and it will modulate down to only 50% vs. the 25% on the modcon, but the buffer will move the two systems very close on gas usage. BUT, AND I SAY BUT ONE MORE TIME. Any homeowner can clean his or hers 80-84% boiler in a half hour, less the next time around. The burners generally just slide out and you clean them and vacuum the bottom of the boiler. You also look at the light blue flame, and it should be about a 1/4 to 1/2" tall. The owners manual and the install manual even tell you how to do this, as well as what the flame should look like. That alone will save you $6,000 total when comparing your 80% to the 20 year life of a modcon. Wake up folks. As for you Bill, you want to look up the difference between cellulose insulation versus fiberglass. The performance of fiberglass really drops of a lot the colder it gets. http://insul-pro.com/Documents/R-Value_Performance.html

Beenthere, I can just hear the misery in your voice when you talked about all the work to remove that 1,200 pound boiler above. Now, lets add to that, bringing down a new 350 pound cast iron and a 170 pound buffer tank.

Last edited by rickmay; 10-18-2011 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 10-18-2011, 07:17 PM   #21
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How much can I expect to spend on an insulated buffer tank and controls?
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Old 10-18-2011, 08:25 PM   #22
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LOL... I'm a one man show. So I have n o Union affiliation what so ever. Nice try Rick. That advisor can do what he wants in his home. He's probably getting a good discount on the 80%, and a higher efficiency boiler would have as good of a discount.

Your post are about what you heard from someone else. No practical experience from you. So you are simply spreading hear say.

Come back in 10 years when you have experience on installing and servicing, and tracking the performance of both 80% and mod/cons.

And that GV you linked to, has had a lot of control problems, and cast sections have been known to leak. Installed one of them about 10 years ago that leaked from new.
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Old 10-18-2011, 08:40 PM   #23
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At www.heat-flo.com, you can purchase a 40 gallon, stainless steel with 2" of foam insulation for $940 and a 60 gal. for $1,675. I believe those are the prices, plus shipping. Stainless is unneccessary for a closed heating system, as there is no rust unless you have oxygen. All old boiler piping is straight steel, and mine is now 80 years old and will go another 80. This also tells me that it is somewhat important to eliminate air from the system, say Spirovent. It is important to know how to fill your system and how to vent the air from the radiators. Heat-flo also has the formula for determining tank size. It took a while for me to know which were the proper numbers to put in the formula. More importantly, they list the reasons for having a buffer tank, in the first place.

If it were me, AO SMITH sells an uninsulated 80 gallon steel STORAGE TANK, which I saw online for $900 plus. You can find this product at the AO Smith website under COMMERCIAL and storage tanks. This is what makes sense to me. They are the only ones with common sense in that they make their storage tank useful for both a storage tank and a buffer tank. I believe it has Five 2" NPT openings, plus a place for a pressure release valve (unneccessary when the boiler has one) plus an oversize opening (3/4" ??) for the aquastat. I think there is also a drain. Because of all of the openings, it can be used as a buffer (even though they do not mention it) or for storage. I am assuming that I can buy it for $600 to $900 from a distributor. AO Smith also sells an insulated version, but not sure of the cost. If you look again at the heat-flo website, they show the proper position of the four large openings (three on the sides and one out the top). The one out the top eliminates the need for an air eliminator at this tank.

In my case, I am going to put it into the space that needs heating. If I want less heat, I will wrap it with one of these double-faced aluminum bubble wrap that is 12-18" wide (use your choice) until I like the results. This is relatively less expensive and can be made as thick as you want. It may not be pretty, but it will be inexpensive and last a long time. Water heaters fail because there is more of a reaction in heating the water, as you go from a low temp to a high temp and introducing new water in the tank, so in essence, the annode rod wears away, and you start getting a buildup on the bottom of the tank (when that happens, it makes a percolating sound). This is not nearly the problem with a closed system. A closed, or heating system uses the same water over and over again, and the calcium and other deposits only happen when you drain and refill. Once they are released from the water, nothing further happens, until you add more "tap" water.

Any time you replace the boiler, your system pipes and radiation should be thoroughly cleaned (not with a brush). This is easy. There are cleaning agents that you pump into the system with your old boiler in place. You, then run the boiler for the time indicated on the cleaning agent, then you drain, and then you flush with water. You can buy a pump that sucks up water on the floor and pumps it out the top with a hose. So, you take the pump, put it in a 5 gallon bucket and cleaning agent and pump it into your boiler drain. Empty and equal or slightly greater amount of water from the system first, so that the addition of the cleaner does not blow your relief valve. You can buy the pump for far less than an installer would charge to do this. Unfortunately, few will bring up cleaning the old system.

If you have nothing but large radiators, the payback will be longer. If you have any (or many) small zones, it will save you money. If you have a lot of large radiators, buy a boiler that has sealed combustion like the models I highlighted above, plus buy an outdoor reset, and buy a three or four way mixing valve that also lowers the temperature going to the radiators when it is not so cold outside. Go to www.taco-hvac.com and look at the drawings they have for piping using the 3 and the 4-way mixing valve. These drawings show a hydraulically separated system, meaning that there is a boiler loop and a system loop. The boiler loop is the piping that is next to the boiler, and the system piping comes off the boiler loop with the supply and the return in close proximity. If you use an 80% boiler, you want to try and keep the return water up to the manufacturers recoed water temp. Weil McClain recoes 140 f, but my return temps are all over the board (I bought a digital reader of both the supply and return on my system to see what it was doing). Mine return temps were all over the place, the system is working like clock work, and there is no condensation in the flue, and there is no boiler shock. These are the two reasons they want 140f.

The aquastat is online, maybe for less than $100. These Honeywell L4006A aquastats are more dependable than computers.
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:04 PM   #24
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Beenthere, the "advisor" you refer to gets the same discount for any purchase.

I know you are on your own and perhaps you go to the internet to learn, but this website may not be the place to do it. I say that, as your 12000+ posts suggest that you are looking for answers, and not stating facts.

Beenthere, my "hearsay" is from an engineer who doesn't carry boilers around everyday, so he answers questions based on his knowledge and not his prejudices. Somehow, I would rather side with him.

Please, don't tell me about a 29% savings on installs because it mostly came from controls and not the boiler. Common sense says that a boiler with computers and multiple wiring circuits is going to fail more often than an old fashioned cast iron boiler with controls that hardly ever fail. Nobody thinks of their boiler until there is no heat, and absolutely no boiler on this earth is more dependable than a 80-84% rated boiler. With today's controls, an 84% (or two) with a buffer tank will be very close to a 95% 90 pound weakling of a modcon. And don't tell me your customers are happy with their systems, because they have only had them for a matter of months and obviously know nadda.

And please explain this. If I can buy two 84% boilers for less than the cost of a modcon, how bad can it be when the modcon modulates to 25% and the cast iron, because there are two equal size boilers, that in effect, modulate to 50%. And you want me to spend $300 per year for maintenance, not including repairs. And now, I have a backup? Please, let us have a reality check here.

Last edited by rickmay; 10-18-2011 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 10-19-2011, 12:13 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmay
Beenthere, the "advisor" you refer to gets the same discount for any purchase.

I know you are on your own and perhaps you go to the internet to learn, but this website may not be the place to do it. I say that, as your 12000+ posts suggest that you are looking for answers, and not stating facts.

Beenthere, my "hearsay" is from an engineer who doesn't carry boilers around everyday, so he answers questions based on his knowledge and not his prejudices. Somehow, I would rather side with him.

Please, don't tell me about a 29% savings on installs because it mostly came from controls and not the boiler. Common sense says that a boiler with computers and multiple wiring circuits is going to fail more often than an old fashioned cast iron boiler with controls that hardly ever fail. Nobody thinks of their boiler until there is no heat, and absolutely no boiler on this earth is more dependable than a 80-84% rated boiler. With today's controls, an 84% (or two) with a buffer tank will be very close to a 95% 90 pound weakling of a modcon. And don't tell me your customers are happy with their systems, because they have only had them for a matter of months and obviously know nadda.

And please explain this. If I can buy two 84% boilers for less than the cost of a modcon, how bad can it be when the modcon modulates to 25% and the cast iron, because there are two equal size boilers, that in effect, modulate to 50%. And you want me to spend $300 per year for maintenance, not including repairs. And now, I have a backup? Please, let us have a reality check here.
Your just out of control here. You have no experience with this subject matter other than a few web pages and some guy that drives a train. The attitude that you have exemplified towards technicians is appalling. Judging by the monetary information presented, I have to conclude that you are a cheapskate who keeps calling the low bid contractor. You get what you pay for.
But worst of all is your personal attacks on beenthere. I have talked with him and answered threads for 5 or 6 years on another forum, and have yet to see him make a dishonest statement about anything, or try to mislead anyone. But you are an "internet tough guy".
You read your website and now your a genius. As such you are qualified to tell others, that have 30 years of experience with the equipment, that they are wrong. After all the engineer designed the equipment, he could never be wrong. There has never been an engineering failure...ever!

So go out and get that cast iron boiler, stuff in the trunk of the old Mercedes, take it home and install it. Enjoy your gas bill. But first, try to stop insulting all of the technicians on here. You just might need us one day.


BTW, if you fall down the stairs carrying the boiler, I hope it doesn't go where the sun doesn't shine
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Old 10-19-2011, 04:46 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmay View Post
Beenthere, the "advisor" you refer to gets the same discount for any purchase.

I know you are on your own and perhaps you go to the internet to learn, but this website may not be the place to do it. I say that, as your 12000+ posts suggest that you are looking for answers, and not stating facts.

Beenthere, my "hearsay" is from an engineer who doesn't carry boilers around everyday, so he answers questions based on his knowledge and not his prejudices. Somehow, I would rather side with him.

Please, don't tell me about a 29% savings on installs because it mostly came from controls and not the boiler. Common sense says that a boiler with computers and multiple wiring circuits is going to fail more often than an old fashioned cast iron boiler with controls that hardly ever fail. Nobody thinks of their boiler until there is no heat, and absolutely no boiler on this earth is more dependable than a 80-84% rated boiler. With today's controls, an 84% (or two) with a buffer tank will be very close to a 95% 90 pound weakling of a modcon. And don't tell me your customers are happy with their systems, because they have only had them for a matter of months and obviously know nadda.

And please explain this. If I can buy two 84% boilers for less than the cost of a modcon, how bad can it be when the modcon modulates to 25% and the cast iron, because there are two equal size boilers, that in effect, modulate to 50%. And you want me to spend $300 per year for maintenance, not including repairs. And now, I have a backup? Please, let us have a reality check here.
Those cast iron boilers will not in effect be modulating down to 25%, or at all. Ask your "advisor" to explain to you about BTU to mass thermal transfer.

You'll simply have more water content in your heating system then you need. So that when both boilers need to run, your using more fuel then needed. I take care of a church that has that set up. A privte school that has 4 boilers piped up parallel like that, and some larger commercial places that have modulating 80% cast iron boilers. That range from 2,000,000 BTUs input to 5,000,000 BTUs input. They have reset controls, but use more fuel then the places that have converted over to mod/cons.

Come back in ten years after having real world experience with a few hundred boilers in different applications. Instead of just an "advisors" opinion.

BTW, Burnham/US boiler, gives all employees a one time special price on a boiler. After that, they pay a higher price for any boiler they get/buy from them.

Oh, and I helped install some of Burnhams experimental boilers about 12 years ago. That boiler became its own division. Still made today, but only a high 80%. Burnham engineers came out and set them up. Super expensive, and not as reliable as a mod/con. But they got controls, just not good fuel savings.
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:31 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of Cold View Post
Your just out of control here. You have no experience with this subject matter other than a few web pages and some guy that drives a train. The attitude that you have exemplified towards technicians is appalling. Judging by the monetary information presented, I have to conclude that you are a cheapskate who keeps calling the low bid contractor. You get what you pay for.
But worst of all is your personal attacks on beenthere. I have talked with him and answered threads for 5 or 6 years on another forum, and have yet to see him make a dishonest statement about anything, or try to mislead anyone. But you are an "internet tough guy".
You read your website and now your a genius. As such you are qualified to tell others, that have 30 years of experience with the equipment, that they are wrong. After all the engineer designed the equipment, he could never be wrong. There has never been an engineering failure...ever!

So go out and get that cast iron boiler, stuff in the trunk of the old Mercedes, take it home and install it. Enjoy your gas bill. But first, try to stop insulting all of the technicians on here. You just might need us one day.


BTW, if you fall down the stairs carrying the boiler, I hope it doesn't go where the sun doesn't shine
" Cast iron sure is heavy that's why I carry sledgehammers."

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Old 10-19-2011, 06:46 AM   #28
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Well, most of us don't have a problem maybe having to flush twice once a week or so in order to avoid wasting 3 or 4 gallons every other time, esp when we just take a pee. But from your posts I can see that you might have to flush twice more often than most of us. ;-)

And the Prius is not junk tech. Your world view places little or no value on fuel costs, as if it were infinitely available and anything that impedes you from burning as much as possible is draconian regulation. This world view also places little value on what is left after you leave the earth. In the next 30-40 years we are going to need all the tech we can muster to squeeze additional efficiency out of what is left... and what is left will get more and more $$. It won't always be easy or simple but the tech growing pains are going to be the cost we pay to keep more and more billions of us warm and mobile.

Interesting discussion about boilers though. I am learning something... which is always good. If I ever need one it'll be a modcon for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmay View Post
And Raylo, I understand technology, and it is great if it works and it is not a sham. 1.5 gallon toilets would be great if you did not have to flush them twice. I am moving on.

Last edited by raylo32; 10-19-2011 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:49 AM   #29
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Out of control? No. Aggravated by what I am hearing from you guys. Yes.

You guys from the East coast are so gaga about your lightweight modcons, you can't see the forest thru the trees.

All you guys can say is that you will save US 29%. Rob from NRT tells US that there are no sealed combustion cast iron boilers out there, yet they are there. According to Rob, sealed combustion can save us 15% on our gas bills. I AGREE. And isn't it amazing that I have shown you two cast iron boilers that will already save US half of the 29% you guys robotically put forth? The other half of the savings will come from advanced system design, a buffer tank, and boilers that do not need a $300 service each year.

Beenthere, who I believe is a really nice guy (and I am sure you are all nice guys), tells me that buffer tanks are a waste and that modcons don't need buffer tanks. This really got me, and do you know that Rob agrees with him. Rob designs systems, but he doesn't use buffer tanks. Yet, the industry leaders seem to disagree with all of you that have thrown stones at my suggestions. Search "buffer tank in heating system." Taco, an industry leader in controls seems to disagree with you. They say, "Buffer tanks are often within HVAC systems to provide additional system fluid volume in order to prevent short cycling of heating or cooling apparatus." That is interesting....increasing volume to increase efficiency. Or look at the second entry from Cemline. That one starts with "System Efficiency buffer tank. Maybe, they are on to something. Or HDG Buffer Tanks says that a buffer tank "allows the use of a variety of sophisticated controllers that otherwise wouldn't work with a wood pellet boiler." Well, fellas, this is also true with a cast iron or modcon. An example would be that a system bypass does not make sense much of the time, but it certainly can be used with a buffer tank. With a system bypass using the new Taco 2-way iSeries mixing valve (set point), one can return 140 f degree water to the boiler, and only heat the water in the buffer to 130f, or less, and have the boiler refire when the water drops 10-15 degrees. Who was it that said you have to heat it to 160 or 180f? Here is one from Geothermal help...."a buffer tank is an essential component of a water to water heat pump system."

Or, how about this website in the U.K., who always seems to be ahead of us in the heating game in some ways. This is novel. http://www.soloheatinginstallations....mal_stores.htm A potable water tank within a buffer tank. What do they say?

"Thermal stores (buffer tanks) don't have to just be used with renewable energy systems. They can give many benefits to simple oil or gas boiler systems. The fact a thermal store reduces cycling of an appliance will result in fewer services for the appliance and less break downs (Oh my, the constant misuse of the words less and fewer). They will also allow condensing boilers to run in condensing mode for as much time as possible; condensing mode being the most efficient operation of a condensing boiler.

Rob, I am waiting for all of your research on Insul-Tarp, as we got down to 40 f, and my basement floor and air are still BOTH at 69.8 f. Amazing, not even 1/10th of a degree difference, yet.

As for the US who make the mistake of installing a modcon, they will learn their lesson, whether it is 6 months down the road, 5 years down the road, or even 15 years down the road. You will pay more in total cost for your modcon than a well designed cast iron boiler and system with buffer tank. You will definitely be going without heat a lot more often, especially when the stainless starts to corrode (and it will), or when the plastic parts fatigue from the heat inside the cabinet, or just a simple computer module that costs $200-900 just for the part and is sending out false signals.

I must be stuck in the wrong time continuum. In the 1300s, they also threw stones at witches, but now we seem to idolize them, as in Harry Potter. As for me, I am going to wait to see what else you will try flingiing at me. I do know it won't be a cast iron boiler.

EDIT: Or not, I just went to the Triangle Tube website. Maybe, someone can explain to me why Triangle Tube removed its warranty statement. Could it be they want US to think about all the money we will save rather than the problems? I searched "warranty." Nothing. I looked at the product literature where it used to be, but it is now mysteriously gone.

Last edited by rickmay; 10-19-2011 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:01 AM   #30
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Cast iron vs mod/cons


Why would a guy trying to sell you a buffer tank, say its not necessary to have one?

Stop calling us names. This witch can throw that rock back at you....

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