Can I Do This? - Worried About Combustion Air (Images) - HVAC - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > HVAC

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-27-2007, 09:01 AM   #1
They're all fixer-uppers
 
J187's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: MA
Posts: 991
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


I have a very large and wasted utility/laundry room which contains an electric water heater, an oil burner and the washer and dryer. Here is what I want to do.

Take washer and dryer and flip them on the same wall into the ajoining room, the garage. In the open space left over, we would like to build a small bathroom. The best way to do this would be to build a 3/4 length partition wall between the new bathroom area and the furnace and use a sliding door to access water heater/furnace area. My concern is enclosing the furnace too much and not leaving enough combustion air. Is this a problem and if so, any solutions that would still allow me to do what I am thinking... See pic.
Attached Thumbnails
Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)-roomimageresized.jpg   Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)-roomimageresized2.jpg  

Advertisement

J187 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2007, 01:41 PM   #2
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


I guess U can do it.But it also depends on the space U have for other stuff U might wanna keep on the room

Advertisement

HiFi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2007, 04:28 PM   #3
They're all fixer-uppers
 
J187's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: MA
Posts: 991
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFi View Post
I guess U can do it.But it also depends on the space U have for other stuff U might wanna keep on the room
Thanks. There will be plenty of other space. I'm definitely not worried about that. I am only worried about combustion air. I'm wondering if I should put in some vents or something to bring in more air...
J187 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2007, 04:58 PM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 886
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


You are wise to ask this question. Also manufacturer spacing from combustible materials will be important. If you do not have papers with the heater check the website.
Big Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2007, 05:40 PM   #5
zel
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SE PA
Posts: 229
Rewards Points: 150
Send a message via AIM to zel
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


Looks like a good idea. You could make the door a pocket door and use a louvered door like this, if noise isnt a concern in that new bathroom.

http://www.shutterscanada.ca/images/shutters_indoor.jpg
zel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2007, 06:07 PM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 205
Rewards Points: 166
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


You should have asked this question in the HVAC forum. Yes, you can add combustion air by dropping a high and low combustion pipe from the attic. I'm assuming it is only a single story. If it is a two story building, you can cut in a small vent (12X12) into the wall that would pull from the garage. It would be better to pull from the attic though. There have been some new homes that have had well sealed garages. With the dryer being in the garage our local codes require extra ventilation. I'm hoping that furnace doesn't have a free return (no return duct). If it has a return duct, seal off the room and make it a mechanical room. Do not use a louvered door for combustion air. They used to do this in the old days, but it is code now not to pull from conditioned air. There is a safety risk involved (carbon monoxide). If I was changing out your unit, I would have to seal off the room and bring in combustion air from a different source to bring it up to code.

Last edited by Malcolm; 07-27-2007 at 06:10 PM.
Malcolm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2007, 11:29 PM   #7
retired
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 108
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
If it is a two story building, you can cut in a small vent (12X12) into the wall that would pull from the garage.
No, you shan't. Here's the pertinent section of the IRC.

SECTION R309
GARAGES AND CARPORTS
R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.
R309.1.1 Duct penetration. Ducts in the garage and ducts
penetrating the walls or ceilings separating the dwelling
from the garage shall be constructed of a minimum No. 26 gage (0.48 mm) sheet steel or other approved material and shall have no openings into the garage.
R309.1.2 Other penetrations. Penetrations through the
separation required in Section R309.2 shall be protected by filling the opening around the penetrating item with
approved material to resist the free passage of flame and
products of combustion.
R309.2 Separation required. The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area by not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side.
dmaceld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2007, 08:42 AM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 205
Rewards Points: 166
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


Quote:
Originally Posted by dmaceld View Post
No, you shan't. Here's the pertinent section of the IRC.

SECTION R309
GARAGES AND CARPORTS
R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.
R309.1.1 Duct penetration. Ducts in the garage and ducts
penetrating the walls or ceilings separating the dwelling
from the garage shall be constructed of a minimum No. 26 gage (0.48 mm) sheet steel or other approved material and shall have no openings into the garage.
R309.1.2 Other penetrations. Penetrations through the
separation required in Section R309.2 shall be protected by filling the opening around the penetrating item with
approved material to resist the free passage of flame and
products of combustion.
R309.2 Separation required. The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area by not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side.

Damn I hate when people quote literature and have no clue how it works in the real world. I realize that it works differently for all areas and codes are interpreted differently as well. Running a combustion air to the garage is perfectly acceptable in my area. Why? Because the room will be considered a mechanical room if completely sealed. It isn't considered conditioned air. It would be the same as having a separate closet/utility room in the garage with a louvered door. I'm guessing you have seen this before. Well, that is why I said the room would have to be completely sealed. Don't quote things that you do not know of. I understand the reasoning for keeping the dwelling and garage separate. This, however, would be considered a mechanical room. With that said, the OP should contact his/her local building department as codes vary by region. Like I said before, it would be better to draw from the attic.

DMACELD

I'm guessing you have no practical experience in HVAC. Please do not post things that you are not familiar with.

Last edited by Malcolm; 07-28-2007 at 08:48 AM.
Malcolm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2007, 02:35 PM   #9
retired
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 108
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
Damn I hate when people quote literature and have no clue how it works in the real world. I realize that it works differently for all areas and codes are interpreted differently as well. Running a combustion air to the garage is perfectly acceptable in my area. Why? Because the room will be considered a mechanical room if completely sealed. It isn't considered conditioned air.

I'm guessing you have no practical experience in HVAC. Please do not post things that you are not familiar with.
Experience installing HVAC, no. But I have 22 years experience in enforcing contract requirements, codes, regulations, and national guidelines. You're right, there are issues of differing interpretations.

In this case the section I quoted specifically separates garage from residence. But there are other words in the code that say, "For the purpose of this section, rooms or spaces that are not part of the living space of a dwelling unit and that communicate directly with a private garage through openings shall be considered to be part of the private garage." So, do the code writers mean "living space" to be synonymous with "residence?" If that's the generally accepted interpretation, I can live with it. One implication of this interpretation, not directly relevant to the issue at hand, is whenever he sells the house its square feet of living area will have to exclude the mechanical room.

But there are two items the OP needs to be aware of, in addition to, or part of, the sealing requirements you spelled out. The door has to be the same type as required between the living space and garage. He also needs to make sure the ignition source of the water heater and furnace are the minimum 18" above the floor level of the garage. The furnace probably is already, by design. Of course, as you said, local codes are controlling and so trump the IRC if there's a difference between them.

I agree with you, venting from the attic is the best method.

As an aside, interestingly there are only three references to "mechanical room" in the 2006 IRC. All of them deal with return air, not combustion air. Also, none of the 29 hits on "conditioned space" or the 3 on "conditioned air" deals with combustion air.
dmaceld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2007, 10:17 PM   #10
Mechanical Contractor
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 115
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


In any case, malcolm he was asking about venting from the garage into a bathroom in the house that has the furnace in it, not a seperate room inside the garage. What is your HVAC experience?
__________________
100% Union and proud of it.
MechanicalDVR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2007, 07:49 AM   #11
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 205
Rewards Points: 166
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicalDVR View Post
In any case, malcolm he was asking about venting from the garage into a bathroom in the house that has the furnace in it, not a seperate room inside the garage. What is your HVAC experience?
He was talking about adding a sliding door to the furnace/water heater room and was worried about combustion air. Which means, he wants to seal the room. You couldn't leave that setup if you were changing that gas furnace out in my area. If he seals the room with the furnace, it will be no different than having a furnace in a closet and venting to attic. I have ACTUALLY vented to the garage like this two times and have called the code enforcement officer prior to doing so. They both involved a closet (which the OP will be making it). One time it was because of a two story house (would have to do too much demolition to run it) and the other time was because of a low slope roof with no attic space. The home owner didn't want to cut into the roof because low slope roofs are prone to leaks. Well, I called the inspector and he gave me approval. He made it sound like it has been done quite a few times in my area. My experience/knowledge of real world scenarios appears to be greater than yours. I know I give generalizations of how to do things. For example in this situation, I would seal the room off and look for the attic for ventilation. If that was not feasible, I would look for other options. You on the other hand would be scratching your head and trying to cut goose neck flashings into the roof or try to convert their unit to a heat pump. Cutting a flashing into the room isn't the best option most of the times. I know you worry about attic ventilation, but it just shows how you don't look at the whole picture. If the furnace was setup to use conditioned air for combustion, then it obviously was built in the 80's or later. Houses were not sealed tightly in those days. You may have 21 years experience, but you need some more time in the field. You have probably been a salesman for the last 20 years. It is time for you to go into a new line of work. You get confused on simple everyday situations in the HVAC field. I have done both install and service work. You obviously do not realize they are two different beasts. You have very limited knowledge about install and I am not impressed by your service knowledge.

P.S.

Years in the field doesn't mean jack $&!@. I have met people who have been in the field for 15 years that just do fiberglass duct or are just helpers.

Last edited by Malcolm; 07-29-2007 at 08:46 AM.
Malcolm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2007, 08:03 AM   #12
Union HVAC Tech.
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 607
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


Well Malcolm it looks like you are the guy that brought up adding a vent to the garage, which is always a no go, so where's your real world experience now? I didn't see Mech adding a gooseneck anywhere. I will say neither one of you have added anything positive to this guys question at all.

Last edited by bigMikeB; 07-29-2007 at 08:06 AM.
bigMikeB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2007, 08:55 AM   #13
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 205
Rewards Points: 166
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigMikeB View Post
Well Malcolm it looks like you are the guy that brought up adding a vent to the garage, which is always a no go, so where's your real world experience now? I didn't see Mech adding a gooseneck anywhere. I will say neither one of you have added anything positive to this guys question at all.

BigMike

Everything is regional. Moreover, things that are in the codes get interpreted differently. A lot of the time inspectors will let things slide because of the fact that the house is existing and the things that were acceptable when the house was built are no longer acceptable. All of the inspectors in my area have to work in the field for a certain number of jobs before getting that job. I actually worked a couple of years with one of the new inspectors. It isn't "always a no go" to pull from a garage. It maybe in your area, but it has been done in mine. Therefore, you can't say because it isn't allowed in your area that it isn't in other areas. So, how is it a "always" a no go. I didn't think so. Here is what I recommend the OP do.

He/she can either add a louvered door to that room. He/she would then wait until they changed out the furnace or water heater to bring it up to code, or he/she can find combustion air from an alternative source. I would look at the attic for combustion air. If that is not feasible, I would look at other options. There is always a solution to a problem.

P.S.

I would say you ABSOLUTELY did not add anything positive to this guys thread.
Malcolm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2007, 08:57 AM   #14
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 205
Rewards Points: 166
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


OK

Big Mike and MEch

What do you recommend be done in this situation? I know Mech would add a 10 inch goose neck flashing with a 400 CFM fan blowing into the closet. What about you BigMike? And, don't give me I wouldn't run it in the garage out. Give me your answers. I wouldn't run it in the garage either unless that was one of the last options. Well
Malcolm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2007, 09:02 AM   #15
Member
 
concretemasonry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota - Latitude 45.057 Longitude -93.074
Posts: 3,829
Rewards Points: 2,146
Default

Can I do this? - Worried about combustion air (Images)


J187 -

What about a fresh air intake from the ouside or attic? In amny places a fresh air intake ir required by code. Forgetting about the code, it will save you money buy buring outside air.

The garage vent is an obvious no-brainer no-no. You must have a fire rated wall with no penetrations between your garage and living area for your own safety. Any duct is a pentration that can let in fire, fume and carbon monoxide.

Advertisement

concretemasonry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
help, Poor performing AC, coolant leak? damaged coil? images maverick06 HVAC 5 07-31-2007 06:30 PM
Master Bath Shower Remodel with images MattCoops Remodeling 4 01-10-2007 04:16 PM
Combustion blower assembly 1149097 rookie50 HVAC 12 11-27-2006 07:52 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts