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Rschrei518 11-27-2007 02:32 PM

Burnham Boiler
I am in process of converting to natural gas. Gas supplier is offering discounts on Burnham boiler only the Series 2 and for a few hundred dollars more the PVG. All the plumbers are pushing the series 2 but it is only 81% effecincy rating and it has a static pilot. The PVG is over 85% effecency rating. and has Electronic ignition My question which one should i go with?
All the plumbers recommond the series 2 they say it is very reliable because of the static pilot and the pvg has an ignitor module which goes bad all the time is this true?

Is it possible for the vent pipe on the PVG to be brought up the chimney?

Clutchcargo 11-27-2007 02:46 PM

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The Series 2 is the same boiler I've got. I've only had it for 1 season so far. It's a very simple design and most likely will go many seasons without an unscheduled service call.
For me, the diffence of 4 percentage points in efficiency worked out to about $100/yr on a $1800 fuel bill. It should be a bit less this year because we're insulating and the price of gas is down from last year (so far anyway).
You can vent either of those into a lined chimney.

Rschrei518 11-27-2007 04:15 PM

So if the pvg is only going to cost me 300 dollars more then the series 2 should i go for the PVG. $100 dollars a year is a lot but then i am thinking that i may make up for that from not having any service calls. I do like the idea of having a very simple design which is very simple to diagnose a problem.

what do you think? should i go with the series 2 or go with the pvg but the pvg is going to be a more complicated installation and more expensive installation.

Why is there a difference in efficency rating is it all because of the standing pilot or is it because the pvg heats the water better?

Clutchcargo 11-27-2007 05:37 PM

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If it's a choice between the two, I'd go for the PVG. It's still very simple and any brand new boiler will give you many years of service before it gives you any problems.
Is the plumber asking for more money to install the PVG or is the price of the unit itself?

Rschrei518 11-27-2007 06:26 PM

The price difference for the unit itself is about 300 dollars plus the extra cost for the installation. all the plumbers the installation for the pvg would be to costly because i cannot vent it outside the wall because i have a walkway in my backyard plus it would be too close to windows and window air conditioner. the only other option i believe would to run pipe up the chimney but they said it wouldn't be easy or cost effective to do so. i guess the pipe they would need to use would be more costly then a regular chimney liner they use for the reg series 2. What do you think i should do?

Clutchcargo 11-27-2007 06:44 PM

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I'm guessing that since you are converting to NG from Oil, that there is no chimney liner installed in the chimney. The liner for a natural gas boiler, installed through a 2 chimney cost me $700. I wasn't too happy about that. Another option is to have the series 2 converted to have an electric igniter. That boosts the efficiency up to ~83%. Make sure that you have everything spelled out before you sign the contract. The total bill for me was $5000 including the chimney liner, removal of oil tank, and new NG water heater installed. Whenever I deal with plumbers, I think I'm getting screwed.

Rschrei518 11-27-2007 07:49 PM

My situation is keyspan (gas provider) is offering the Series 2 for 799 and the PVG for 1099. They are offering these promotions for people who are converting from oil to gas. Keyspan is only offering the series 2 in a standing pilot.
Could the Series 2 be converted to a electronic ignition after the fact? Would it be cost effective to do so?
I was told that the PVG is very loud when it is on is this true?
Right now i don't have any chimney liner. I believe what the guy was saying was i would need a reg liner for the series 2 and with the pvg they would use like a steel piping and feed it up the chimney to the top..

Any Ideas?

Clutchcargo 11-27-2007 08:10 PM

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Keyspan had a great promotion last year. The boiler was $200 but that was only if you ordered it within 30 days.
I think price would drive the decision for me, you really need to know how much more the PVG would cost to install. In the installation manual they had two versions of the Series 2 boiler listed, the standard pilot and the electronic ignition. The argument that my plumber made for the pilot was that it keeps the area under the boiler warm and dry. I don't know maybe it's true. I've been happy with the boiler so far.
I've never seen the PVG, it wasn't part of the promotion last year. The series 2 is quiet. Any gas boiler, I would imagine, will be much quieter than any oil burning boiler.

Rschrei518 11-28-2007 04:34 PM

Spoke to plumber again he said with the pvg they will have to run AL29-4c all the way up chimney. He said in materials it will cost around $1000 then i asked him won't a regular chimney liner run in that range anyway which i will need anyway he said he dosn't think i will need one my chimney is on south side of house and he said most of the time when chimney is on south side no liner is needed i have a chimney guy coming to inspect chimney should i get a liner anyway even if he says i don't need it.

If the guy says i need a liner anyway should i go for the pvg since i already have to spend money on a liner?

According to the plumber i will save $150 a year with the PVG but he said it will take over 10 years to make my money back on the investment for the liner

Any Ideas on what i should do?

Clutchcargo 11-28-2007 08:31 PM

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If your chimney is lined with a terra cotta liner then you probably can get away without it.
The emmisions of NG appliances contain water vapor which will condense on the interior surface of a cold chimney. This can get into cracks and freeze. Another issue is the water vapor has a high ph value and can degrade the interior of the chimney.

Rschrei518 11-30-2007 06:46 PM

Had a plumber at my house and it turns out that i can direct vent right outside the wall with the pvg. Should i or should i have them run up the chimney? Does the pipe stick out far from side of house or is it flush with the house like a dryer vent?

Rschrei518 12-04-2007 12:14 PM

How reliable is power vent motor?

Rschrei518 12-08-2007 07:20 PM

I thought i would give you an update i just had a few more questions for you also i decided i am going with PVG and am going with Well Mccain Gold 60 Indirect. The Pvg i am going to vent out the wall as long as there is no downsides to doing this is there? Is it noisy? Does it stick out far from house?

I am just deciding what size pvg i should go with either the 4 or the 5 the plumber recommonds the pvg5 which the input is 140,000 btu's all the plumbers i brought in measured my baseboards added them up and multiplied by 600 I have about 170 feet of baseboards so that puts me at 102,000 btu's. According to the plumber i have to satisify the need for the indirect but i don't understand why since it will be on a priority switch. I don't want to go oversized because i don't want a unit which short cycles. Ever single estimate i gotten told me i need around 130,000 for my house. I wish i knew what size my current boiler is because it does not shortcycle but there is no info on it or model number. Any Thoughts should i choose the PVG 4 Or PVG 5
Plumber recomonds pvg 5 so do you think if i go with it my unt will shortcycle?
Here are the Specs

Clutchcargo 12-09-2007 07:28 AM

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Sizing a boiler is more about running a heat loss analysis on your house than measuring the length of baseboard. Most plumbers, however, will simply match what is currently in your house. If you run your heat cooler during the day then bringing it up to temperature quickly is something to consider and you should match what the baseboard is capable of pulling out of it. BTW, baseboard output varies by manufacturer, model, and input temperature. Using 600 BTUs may not be correct.

On a plus side of oversizing the boiler, you can add an indirect water heater down the line if you want to.
FWIW, I let the plumber decide on the size of the boiler (108 BTUs output) and I wish I went with the smaller model. The plumber's main concern is keeping you warm and oversizing is safer than undersizing.

Rschrei518 12-09-2007 10:16 AM

I am going with an indirect now but it will be on a priority switch, I did the heat loss i used slant fin software and came up with about 80,000 btu's. All the estimates i got they came in and measured all my baseboards which came out to 170 feet and multiplied by 600 they come up with 102,000 btu's. so should i go with the pvg 4 or pvg 5 i have 2 zones 3 zones with indirect. I do not want unit to shortcycle do you think if i go with the pvg 5 it will shortcycle?
Let me know what you think
Here are the specs of them

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