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Old 03-23-2012, 03:00 AM   #1
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


Hello,
I replaced two "frozen" 60amp built-in air handler breakers on our attic unit and upon turning it back on, the air handler blower won't stop running? The outside condenser cycles on and off as normal, so we have air, but the blower won't stop running?


1) I tried various settings at the thermostat, including turning it to the "off" position, but still the air handler wouldn't stop running. I then removed all the wires from the thermostat but the air handler continued to run.


2) I turned the main outdoor breaker for the air conditioner to "off" and then back "on", in hopes of possibly resetting something, but accomplished nothing.


Apparently a contact or switch of some sort is stuck on the air handler? I read a thread stating a "Fan/Control Relay" can do this? Does that seem most likely and is that the unit, with five wires attached, which is directly under the breakers as pictured below?


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You may not need these details but just FYI. It's a split system RUUD ac with heat strip, UBHA-21J-14SFBAI.



I was sure I replaced all wires as they were originally installed. The air handler breakers had two #12 wires each (oranges/blacks) in each lug, with exception the top breaker had an additional (orange and black) #14 wire installed in the lugs. So the top breaker had three wires (two #12 and one #14) in each lug.


Upon replacement, I twisted these wires together and inserted them as one into each respective lug. They flattened nicely and have made solid contact.


The orange #14 is spliced with one leg going up to the transformer and the other leg going down to the capacitor. The black #14 is spliced with one leg going up to the transformer and the other leg going down to what I beleive is the Fan Relay?

I note this because I am not absolutely positive the orange wire was attached to the breaker, though 98% sure. There was so much corrossion the breakers broke apart upon trying to remove them. The three black wires were all tie wired together but I found the orange #14 wire dangling by itself but beside the other two orange wires, which were tie wire together. This is how it appears in my original pics as well.


Any help would be appreciated!!!
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:01 PM   #2
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


once the airhandler is energised it keep running,no thermostat wire connected

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Old 03-23-2012, 02:00 PM   #3
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


Before you start beating your head against the wall, How long did you wait after disconnecting all the low voltage wires for blower to stop running ? some units have time delays and will continue to run up to 90 sec. after.
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Old 03-23-2012, 02:55 PM   #4
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


Thanks for the replies!

1) I've disconnected the thermostat wires(at the thermostat) several times and have also turned it to the "off" position for more than 10 minutes each time. It cycles the outdoor condenser normally but will not shut down the indoor air handler blower.

2) I've also had the main breakers turned off for up to an hour at a time. The blower starts immediately upon turning the breaker back on, no matter what setting the thermostat has.

3) I went ahead and replaced the "power relay" module, otherwise fan/control relay (5 terminal) module, with a brand new one but still the blower will not stop running?

I need some input/suggestions with this one guys. I'm not an ac guy, so if I need to test the blower or anything else for a short please be specific.


Thanks, Ralph
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Last edited by Ralph III; 03-23-2012 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:57 PM   #5
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


Was the air handler working properly before you replaced the breakers? I am not totally sure what "frozen" breakers meant.
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:04 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpnret View Post
Was the air handler working properly before you replaced the breakers? I am not totally sure what "frozen" breakers meant.
Yes, everything was working properly with exception of the two 60amp built-in air handler breakers.

The unit and electrical components are quite corroded from moisture/condensation thru the years. The breakers were "frozen" in that you couldn't turn them on/off much less offer protection with a short. The breaker lugs were also quite corroded which resulted in damage to the old breakers upon removing them.

I feared it could present a fire hazard, so I replaced the two built-in 60amp breakers with two new and exact matches. Upon powering the ac back up, via main breaker, the air handler won't now shut off.

Ralph

Last edited by Ralph III; 03-23-2012 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:24 PM   #7
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


Did you replace relay ?
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:00 PM   #8
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by ggold View Post
Did you replace relay ?
Yes, as noted in previous post today. I replaced the relay with a brand new one today but it made no difference. The air handler is running like a
J-Deer (non stop)....

The thermostat apparently isn't the problem nor the relay, so what else could it be? It is a very simple unit, as seen in pics, with no fancy electronics.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I checked the continuity on breaker lugs/wires while unit was powered down.

A) The bottom breaker lugs and respective wires have no continuity. The blacks and orange wires feed various components as seen in photos.

B) However, the top breaker orange and black wires do show continuity between them(thus breaker lugs also) and everything they run to? Is this normal to have continuity showing between two different 120amp legs of a 240vold dp breaker?

C) Also, if I remove the orange #14 wire from the top breaker (top lug) the air handler will shut off with that, but not come on. That wire branches(see wire nut) with one wire going to the transformer and another wire going to the capacitor.
Ralph

Last edited by Ralph III; 03-23-2012 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:20 PM   #9
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph III View Post
Yes, everything was working properly with exception of the two 60amp built-in air handler breakers.

The unit and electrical components are quite corroded from moisture/condensation thru the years. The breakers were "frozen" in that you couldn't turn them on/off much less offer protection with a short. The breaker lugs were also quite corroded which resulted in damage to the old breakers upon removing them.

I feared it could present a fire hazard, so I replaced the two built-in 60amp breakers with two new and exact matches. Upon powering the ac back up, via main breaker, the air handler won't now shut off.

Ralph
I can't offer much in the way of A/C experience, but just using basic troubleshooting skills, based on the info you provided it sure sounds like you connected something wrong. It's too late to say it now but you should have snapped a picture first. Hopefully someone with more experience can shed some light on this.
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:33 PM   #10
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


Check your wiring of relay. You should have a wiring diagram on one of your panels.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:23 PM   #11
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


lol...open mic night
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:30 PM   #12
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


Hello All,
I did take photos before doing anything in addition to making notes as needed. The pictures displayed on this thread are the original ones BEFORE replacing the breakers.

The only question in regards to wiring, is whether the orange #14 gauge wire was indeed connected to the top breakers' top lug. That lug was so corroded the breaker broke apart when I attempted to unscrew it. After removing the breaker I found the 14gauge orange wire. It wasn't tie-wired with the other two orange wires but was beside them. There is just nothing else it could have been connected too as the wire is short?

The original photos appear to confirm there was a 14 gauge orange wire attached to the top lug and a black 14 gauge wire attached to the bottom lug (both on top breaker).

Ralph
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Old 03-24-2012, 08:02 AM   #13
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


you have a FAN RELAY does that react to having its 24V wire pulled off the terminal for the coil? thats a 208V/230V air handler sounds like the motor is wired direct from those breakers.
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Old 03-24-2012, 09:01 AM   #14
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by biggles View Post
you have a FAN RELAY does that react to having its 24V wire pulled off the terminal for the coil? thats a 208V/230V air handler sounds like the motor is wired direct from those breakers.
Thanks biggles.

Yes, that is the conclusion my Dad and I are coming to. That blower has to be direct wired now.

The orange wire(14 gauge) is spliced in two parts; one part runs up to the transformer and another part runs down to the capacitor. So it is supplying one leg (120volt) direct power to the blower. There is no interuptor for that.

The black wire(14 gauge) is spliced in two parts also; one part runs up to the transformer and another part runs down to the relay. So there is an interuption of power capable there from the thermostat.

Grasping at notions: Is it possible one of the built in breakers became defective so the previous owner/contractor just rigged the wiring? Then when I replaced it with a good breaker, that messed up his rigging and now has direct power?

I am about to go into the attic now to pull some wires one at a time, including 24volt, to see what it does.
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Old 03-24-2012, 10:03 AM   #15
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Air Handler Won't Stop Running, Help Please!!!


Ok, here's what happens with removing wires (one at a time) on relay.


terminal

1 = The blower continues to run no matter if wire is removed. This is the green tstat wire.

3 = Same as above. This brown wire runs to the terminal above m7 on the sequencer(upside down part), which is to the left of breakers.

2 = Same as above. This black wire splits(wire nutted at top), with one part going to breaker and one part going up to the transformer.

4 = The blower won't run if removed. This wire runs directly to the blower from relay.

5 = The blower can be controlled at the thermostat if this wire is removed. It appears to function normally if I remove this wire but only tested quickly. It will turn blower on/off at thermostat and appears to cycle ac, when set to ac. I only tested quickly though. This wire runs to m1 on the sequencer.

Ralph
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