Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > HVAC

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-18-2009, 05:14 PM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 404
Rewards Points: 256
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


Hi,

I live in Portland OR and I'm about to pull the trigger on the order and add a 3 ton Heat Pump to my existing Trane XV90 80,000 BTU furnace. I'm an Electrical Engineer for my day job and I love DIY projects.

I was looking at Goodman, Rheem, Rudd, and Trane. Since I can get such a good deal on Goodman, and I've only heard good things about them, I'm going that route. Sounds like Goodman makes stuff that goes into new houses and they are more value oriented, but with such a good warranty seems like I can't go wrong. Plus it seems like Goodman is more availble to the DIY'er. I've decided to go with the 14 SEER unit, the SSZ140361A. This is only a few hundred more then the 13 SEER unit and seems like they put the higher quality compressor, and they offer the lifetime warranty on it, etc. Also since I'll be heating with it, seems like the extra money is worth it..

Here is the parts list I've come up with to this point. I'm going to get my stuff from www.acwholesalers.com and www.pexsupply.com. I'll also need wiring and other various items, but I plan on Home Depot for those..


Since tables don't seem to work very well I'll put a link here to my working spreadsheet:

http://www.skylab.org/~chugga/forums/3-ton%20Goodman%2014SEER%20Hvac%20Install%20DIY.xls

And a screenshot:





Here is my current downflow furance:


Basically the bottom base plenum is rusting out. I'm going to go to a local fabricator for a new base can (and all the duct re-work) and then I have to redo the cold air return too. I may also re-do the box that feeds 3 12" ducts under the house. I have two filters, one media and one electric (The electric filter doesn't do any good if you don't clean it and stuff still falls into the air handler even though it's constanly on. My variable speed fan takes the load just fine.) I'm also going to use a smaller base can and bring up a rectangular duct from the bottom to go up to the loft because the 400sq-ft addition stole from a 12" line that already fed 3 other rooms.

My cased coil is going to be 22" tall so everything goes up quite a bit. (Goodman use to spec 26" now it's 22" I'm counting on that and verfied that's not a typo) 107" total from floor to celing. 17.5"W 40"H 26" Deep Furnace. I'll post more on the design later once I scan it in.


If you thing I'm getting a good deal, or I'm missing somthing please feel free to comment. I plan to use this thread to post my progress. I'm about to start tearing it all down and pulling the rusted base can and starting on spec'ing the duct work.

Thanks for any advice!

-Jeff

zootjeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2009, 06:10 PM   #2
An old Tradesmen
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 25,961
Rewards Points: 3,592
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


You mismatch like that, and you'll be ripping that coil back out.

There is no 3636 coil match for that outdoor unit.
That coil is too small.

beenthere is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2009, 07:15 PM   #3
Member
 
Home Air Direct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 297
Rewards Points: 250
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
You mismatch like that, and you'll be ripping that coil back out.

There is no 3636 coil match for that outdoor unit.
That coil is too small.

Listen to Beenthere. I just went to Goodman Partner Link and downloaded all the possible matches for the SSZ140361A and at best, you can probably get away with a CAPF4860. You might have to do some transition to your furnace. The actual only match is a CAPF4961 + a TXV. Good luck finding that coil.

Unless Goodman has made match changes, you would be wise to really look at the sizing before you order.

I am not speaking from the position of a pro who is seeing you buy your own equipment, but from the standpoint of another HVAC Online Retailer who can tell you that for both parties involved, this stuff does not return well. Make sure before your pull your trigger. ACWholesalers have that information and should be able to provide you with it.

I didn't look at your status, but if you are able send me a private message (I think it after 10 posts) or email me from this thread, i would be happy to send you the pdf file on it so you can check it out yourself. I am not comfortable giving you the backdoor to the Goodman site.

Good Luck to you.
__________________
Settle down! If you were that important, the city would give you lights and a siren for your car
Home Air Direct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2009, 08:58 PM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 404
Rewards Points: 256
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


Thanks for the comments. Helps if you do your homework right? Yaa, looks like that coil isn't in the table for the 14SEER unit, can't just use the 13 SEER recommended coil and expect it to scale..

Thanks for keeping me honest!
zootjeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2009, 09:05 PM   #5
Member
 
Home Air Direct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 297
Rewards Points: 250
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by zootjeff View Post
Thanks for keeping me honest!
Just want you to be right. Nothing worse than that size of investment that does not work........for either party.

Good luck
__________________
Settle down! If you were that important, the city would give you lights and a siren for your car
Home Air Direct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2009, 11:36 PM   #6
Member
 
hvaclover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Suburbs of Detroit Mi
Posts: 3,704
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


If you are referring to the great life time warranty on the compressor, that applies only to professionally installed system by Goodman dealers.

I had to be certified by the wholesaler and qualify thru a dealer training program.

To register the warranty requires a dealer number.

Just thought you should be made aware of that important fact.
__________________
Just slow, not stupid.
hvaclover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2009, 11:48 PM   #7
Member
 
Home Air Direct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 297
Rewards Points: 250
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
If you are referring to the great life time warranty on the compressor, that applies only to professionally installed system by Goodman dealers.

I had to be certified by the wholesaler and qualify thru a dealer training program.

To register the warranty requires a dealer number.

Just thought you should be made aware of that important fact.
The Goodman dealer process varies by area, and depends on it distribution bloodline. A growing sector is now company owned distribution. Then there is independent distribution, and then there is Johnstone (monster in-house account). Each one treats the product and its dealer network differently.

As far as the 99 yr warranty, I bet the end around is that the company that he is buying the unit from are registered dealers and they will supply him with the dealer number. That is what most all Online retailers are. I am an HVAC dealer selling Whirlpool, but if I was not promoting the Online, I would just be the brick & mortor like everyone else.
__________________
Settle down! If you were that important, the city would give you lights and a siren for your car
Home Air Direct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2009, 01:43 AM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 404
Rewards Points: 256
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


OK,

So, looking at the datasheets, the 3636 Coil that I really want to use will work with the 3 ton SEER13 R22 unit or the 2.5 ton SEER14 R410A unit. Is it possible to get another coil other then the Goodman coil that will fit in my cramped space? (less then 24 inches high) The wider coils don't seem to buy me much, just the taller 30" ones. I'm temped to go down to the 2.5 ton unit, it will just run more often. I'm planning on insolating my floors and attics in the near future anyway.. My house is only 1900 square feet.

It's a bummer my furnace is only a few years old or I'd get a smaller wider air handler with venting out the side...

If I did go with the 2.5 ton unit, should I run 7/8 line (per the coil) or the 3/4 (per the condenser). I'm going about 30 ft. Sounds like they suggest using a reducer and running 3/4 but do you gain anything by running bigger line, or does it throw off the system having more coolant in the lines then expected?

Last edited by zootjeff; 06-19-2009 at 01:48 AM.
zootjeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2009, 09:39 AM   #9
Member
 
hvaclover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Suburbs of Detroit Mi
Posts: 3,704
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by Home Air Direct View Post
The Goodman dealer process varies by area, and depends on it distribution bloodline. A growing sector is now company owned distribution. Then there is independent distribution, and then there is Johnstone (monster in-house account). Each one treats the product and its dealer network differently.

As far as the 99 yr warranty, I bet the end around is that the company that he is buying the unit from are registered dealers and they will supply him with the dealer number. That is what most all Online retailers are. I am an HVAC dealer selling Whirlpool, but if I was not promoting the Online, I would just be the brick & mortor like everyone else.
As I understand from my rep it is a a national Goodman policy and that dealer number is for the installing dealer.

I spoke to my rep just to clarify this mater and was informed that if a dealer supplies his own number with out actually doing the install himself
is liable for fraud. Not my words, but my rep' quoting Goodman policy.

If you are selling units successfully with out following SOP that is your own concern.

I am not here to condemn or cajole anyone. But I think if a DIY job is in the offing the OP should know the company warranty terms fully.
Jjust curious but answer me this: Does your site have a disclaimer that suggests a pro should be involved in the installation process when they buy from you? If am mistaken then accept my sincere apology.
__________________
Just slow, not stupid.
hvaclover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2009, 09:47 AM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 404
Rewards Points: 256
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


Regarding the warranty, a pro is going to be involved. He is going to do brazing, charging, and setup. I'm just doing all the tear down, furnace vent fittings, gas pipe fittings, duct work, heavy moving, Electrical, and line un-wrapping and routing. I also plan to pull the proper permits. Now obviously I want to choose a coil pair that's designed to work with the condenser.
zootjeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2009, 10:42 AM   #11
Member
 
hvaclover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Suburbs of Detroit Mi
Posts: 3,704
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by zootjeff View Post
Regarding the warranty, a pro is going to be involved. He is going to do brazing, charging, and setup. I'm just doing all the tear down, furnace vent fittings, gas pipe fittings, duct work, heavy moving, Electrical, and line un-wrapping and routing. I also plan to pull the proper permits. Now obviously I want to choose a coil pair that's designed to work with the condenser.
That does not constitute a pro installation and the dealer number to register warranty isn't just given out to random techs. They have to be Goodman dealers. Not just any Goodman dealer but the higher tier of the the most skilled are the only ones who receive the certification that qualifies to offer the lifetime warranty.

Makes sense too. If Goodman is the one backing up the warranty they of course will allow only the most qualified hvac contractors to do so to ensure the unit is installed in a manner that will grantee longevity of compressor life.

The sizing of the unit,(which is best done by a room by room heat load calc based on manual J) the correct match of evaporator, line set with in allowable limits, an inert gas flowed while brazing too eliminate any soot build up in copper lines, a properly sized filer drier (Goodman has one built in but I always add a additional drier to cover any internal system problems that factory quality control might miss) evacuating the system to five hundred microns, releasing the charge and and taking superheat and sub-cooling reading, adjusting the charge if you have more or less than fifteen feet of lineset.

I don't know any contractor who is a Goodman dealer who will just charge your system and include all the above and then hand over his dealer number to you. He would not make enough on the job.

Also you have the problem of Goodman's "over the inter net warranty policy" to deal with.

Good luck and i hope things work out for you.


PS

As you are buying the equipment I wish to pose the important consideration: If you have a break down in middle of a heat wave you have to return the part the to seller for exchange. Even if there is a Goodman dealer in your area they will not exchange it for you since you did not buy it from them.

You in effect are your own warranty provider. The turn around on shipping is not something I believe you would wish to wait on in 95*f weather.

I am listed in the phone book as a Goodman dealer. I was called out on a DIY Goodman ac recently.
The gent had health problems and was a retired EE. I found the faulty part but my local Goodman distributor would not exchange the part even though it was still under warranty because it was not purchased from them and secondly they said inter net sales voided the factory warranty. Was not a cheap part either. The gent had heart problems and the heat was killing him. I was willing to install
the OEM replacement and then let him take the issue up with the inter net seller. He was not happy about that but I could not give up a part for nothing.

I don't know what the out come of the gent's warranty part finally was.
__________________
Just slow, not stupid.

Last edited by hvaclover; 06-19-2009 at 12:57 PM.
hvaclover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2009, 10:48 AM   #12
Member
 
Home Air Direct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 297
Rewards Points: 250
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
As I understand from my rep it is a a national Goodman policy and that dealer number is for the installing dealer.

I spoke to my rep just to clarify this mater and was informed that if a dealer supplies his own number with out actually doing the install himself
is liable for fraud. Not my words, but my rep' quoting Goodman policy.

If you are selling units successfully with out following SOP that is your own concern.

I am not here to condemn or cajole anyone. But I think if a DIY job is in the offing the OP should know the company warranty terms fully.
Jjust curious but answer me this: Does your site have a disclaimer that suggests a pro should be involved in the installation process when they buy from you? If am mistaken then accept my sincere apology.

Hvaclover, As far as the Goodman issue, I know all about the recent changes and policing of their policy regarding internet sales, and on paper, it is a very hard line, but I am not seeing the results. I was told by a very high up in Goodman back in Feb. that I would see all Internet sales of Goodman product evaporate. Just the opposite has happened, there is more. Some have changed the graphic and part number to satisfy mother Goodman, and others have enacted a phone order only policy (not internet, so a loophole). The reason Goodman can't completely control this, is GREED. Not necessarily on the part of Goodman, but more on the part of their independent distribution arm.

As far as my company selling, I don't sell Goodman online, so not a problem.

Disclaimer...ABSOLUTELY. Since you asked about our policy or disclaimer, here it is. http://www.homeairdirect.com/store/i...57ef20c8a33597

I too am not here to argue, just to educate and enlighten if possible.
__________________
Settle down! If you were that important, the city would give you lights and a siren for your car
Home Air Direct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2009, 11:04 AM   #13
Member
 
Home Air Direct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 297
Rewards Points: 250
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by zootjeff View Post
Now obviously I want to choose a coil pair that's designed to work with the condenser.
Jeff,

All that Honeywell noise that you have going on above your furnace, is there anyway you could utilize that space for your required added coil height, and then place those accessories elsewhere in the system? Just a thought.

Also, you have those two transitions happening above and below the filters. Looks from the pic, like you could also use that space to gain the needed height that a 4/5 ton coil will add. Just thinkin out loud.
__________________
Settle down! If you were that important, the city would give you lights and a siren for your car

Last edited by Home Air Direct; 06-19-2009 at 11:08 AM.
Home Air Direct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2009, 11:51 AM   #14
Member
 
hvaclover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Suburbs of Detroit Mi
Posts: 3,704
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


Well the following is what I read and what I take away from it as an hvac professional that "Yeah, you need a pro but we'll still sell to you if you get a contractor to do it'. Again not arguing just trying to highlite light some important facts so a customer knows if DIY is right for them

The contractor buys and installs the unit :Full factory warranty.

The DIY buys the equipment and has a contractor install it. The warranty does not extend to the contractor, but the contractor is the one who is installing it.

Part goes bad at start up, DIY sends part back to internet seller, and if the seller provides a new part (if he has it. Some inter net sellers do not stock parts or may just tell the DIY to contact Goodman) who pays the contractor to put the part in?

I am not arguing with you but am touchng the important pitfalls that can befall a DIY.

I won't do a customer purchased system. In variably the systems are over sized and mistmatched like the OPs situation. And the warranty of parts has been an issue. DIY expect in some instances that the much smaller profit a contractor makes on a DIY system includes a llabor warranty.
It does not. If I install equipment I provide:full warranty. DIY provided equipment : No warranty on the parts or labor with the exception of brazed connection.




Installation
Home Air Direct is not a do-it-yourself supplier. Home Air Direct does not condone Internet sellers who promote do-it-yourself HVAC installs. Though some of the pre-work may be done by you the purchaser, Home Air Direct recommends that all final connections, adjustments and start-up processes be completed by a licensed local contractor. All warranties will be voided unless your new equipment is installed by your contractor. We highly guard our relationship with you the consumer and the manufacturers. You are making a large investment and cutting corners will not save you money in the long run. A quality installation will provide many years of uninterrupted operation of your new equipment. As the buyer you agree to follow all local, state and federal laws are it related to the installation and operation of any and all equipment and or parts from Home Air Direct. An HVAC contractor must have a state license and must be fully insured before they, or their employees, can charge you for work on your cooling or heating system. Laws concerning licensing and insurance were created to protect you, the consumer. Contractors carrying licenses must follow (and are responsible to see that their employees follow) the mechanical codes which have been written to protect the consumer's equipment and home. Furthermore, a person who is not a licensed contractor cannot purchase liability insurance. Liability insurance covers the cost of damage to a home or building caused by errors in the work performed on the building's cooling or heating system by contractors and by their employees. Any systems purchased through Home Air Direct must be installed by a licensed contractor. Purchaser (buyer) releases Home Air Direct from any liability or circumstance related to the installation and operation of purchased equipment.
__________________
Just slow, not stupid.

Last edited by hvaclover; 06-19-2009 at 11:55 AM.
hvaclover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2009, 12:09 PM   #15
Member
 
Home Air Direct's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 297
Rewards Points: 250
Default

A 3 ton Heat Pump Retrofit Thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by hvaclover View Post
Well the following is what I read and what I take away from it as an hvac professional that "Yeah, you need a pro but we'll still sell to you if you get a contractor to do it'. Again not aruging just trying high
No argument here. You are mostly correct. Whether the online contractor has the parts or not is unimportant. Their distributors do and that is the same as having the parts, given the geography.

I consider the DIY population as the 3%. They are the 3% who by hell or high water will always try to do something a different way. Usually to save money, but sometimes just because that is the way they are wired. This is why I always marvel at the resistance to DIY. It is such a minuscule population as compared the average HO that it does not effect the mass number much.

Also, there are good DIY consumers and bad ones too. There are some really smart DIY people. And, the fact is, there is a certain amount of responsibility that goes along with the money that they sometimes save, and that is to be inconvenienced by the warranty issues and other glitches in the system. Are there DIY folks who expect to receive the same level of support and service as an all inclusive local contrator? You bet, but they are not realistic and are usually not very happy. We have a vetting process to try and discover these early on and send them on their way, either to another online source, but we ususally suggest that they would be better served locally.

Hvaclover, your stance on HO purchased equipment is fine and normal and at the end of the day, you should do what fits your business plan the best. I respect your thoughts and will always try to see your side as well.

__________________
Settle down! If you were that important, the city would give you lights and a siren for your car
Home Air Direct is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to test apartment Heat Pump tbrubes HVAC 7 02-04-2009 04:05 PM
Heat Pump Woes Zenica HVAC 50 01-27-2009 08:37 AM
Heat Pump vs Aux Electric Heat batolson HVAC 16 01-17-2009 11:28 AM
Testing FuelMaster 21 Module? Heat Pump no Run. thehotrod11 HVAC 3 12-29-2007 03:11 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.