Talk Me Off This Ledge! - Landscaping & Lawn Care - Page 2 - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Landscaping & Lawn Care

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-27-2011, 11:01 AM   #16
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 116
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


Earlier in this thread bedrock is mentioned to be at a shallow depth. One possibility not talked about is removing all of the soil and loose rocks over the bedrock. The result might be a pleasing look of a stone cliff serving the same function as a wall. A short wall might be needed at the top to prevent soil being washed onto the lower bedrock. And rock planters could be located at spots on the cliff to provide a place for plants.

Advertisement

pls8xx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 10:53 AM   #17
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 116
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


Utilizing the site topo provided, I imported a small strip of grid and calibrated the scale to one of the lot boundary dimensions. Next the grid strip was relocated to a position through the house and up the slope.

A part of the site topo was then imported to a grid and scaled to fit it. A line was selected (red) as a x-section location. The location of the contour lines was then used to plot a profile on the grid. It shows a house dimension front to back of 28ft. and slope behind the house to be about 45%.

This is a very steep slope and I would expect there to be heavy erosion trails down it.

The profile can be used to consider size and location for walls.

pls8xx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to pls8xx For This Useful Post:
CplDevilDog (05-31-2011)
Old 05-31-2011, 07:09 AM   #18
Stay-at-home GC
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh,PA
Posts: 638
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


Very nice! I hadn't seen that before.

We do have a few areas where the sandstone walls have slid aside and created mini erosion washes.

The original owners had a lot of the hill overgrown with Crown Vetch which is devil weed unless you have a slope you're trying to hold. Might replant some this Fall.

Thanks so much for your help. I'm kind of embarrassed you spent time on my project. I was just expecting guys to point and laugh and looking for a place to rant.
__________________
Can correctly identify Shinola 3 out of 5 times*
*Under ideal conditions

Some days, my Life needs a Rewind/Erase Button.
CplDevilDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2011, 10:57 AM   #19
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 116
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


And thank you for the kind words. I’m retired and have more time for idle pursuits than most. It was I that recommended you get the topo map done, knowing full well that you would not how to use it as a design tool.

There are many homeowners that need retaining walls. Most will fear building one. Maybe that’s a good thing because most homeowners fail to understand he immense pressures on walls higher than 3 feet. If you continue to post your efforts at doing this project, it will likely aid many people to understand what is involved in building a wall. A forum is a place where we learn from each other.

Any number of walls could be chosen for this site. I’ll look at one possibility. Your first concept for the site was three walls. Below I select possible locations for the walls on the profile such that they span the vertical height needed of around 15 ft with a relative equal height for each wall of 5ft. I make the locations and depth to the footer keeping in mind that you said the bedrock was about 1ft deep.




I note the ground elevation at the above wall locations of 1158.8, 1163.5, and 1169.0. Turning to the plan view, I can now draw the walls, holding to the contours. The walls can be shorter or longer than those shown. Note that I have turned the ends of the walls back into the slope to match the elevation for the top of each wall.





Since you seem very capable with sketchup, I wonder if you can import this type of graphic and develop a 3d version.
pls8xx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2011, 05:24 PM   #20
Stay-at-home GC
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh,PA
Posts: 638
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


Quote:
Originally Posted by pls8xx View Post
One possibility not talked about is removing all of the soil and loose rocks over the bedrock.
I like this idea and am looking into it for the left side of the house. We are building a deck there in Phase III and I will probably push that left hill as far back as possible, allowing for some storage/shaded area under the deck.

The Plan view looks great. I am working on importing the Topo into SketchUp now.
__________________
Can correctly identify Shinola 3 out of 5 times*
*Under ideal conditions

Some days, my Life needs a Rewind/Erase Button.
CplDevilDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2011, 05:46 PM   #21
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 116
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


Whether a removal to bare bedrock is possible depends on the nature and form the rock. Pardon my crude artwork, but this is something like I was visualizing ....

pls8xx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2011, 08:49 PM   #22
Stay-at-home GC
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh,PA
Posts: 638
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


OK, here is the SketchUp 2D Export. If anyone is interested in the full file PM me.

I used the Import tool in the File menu to bring in the jpeg of the Topo Survey

I placed the image flat on the "ground" and then used the Tape Measure Tool to measure the right property line. It measured 4'6" which was a little short, so I typed in 115' on the keyboard and hit Enter to resize the model. SU rescales the entire photo to match the right property line to 115'

Then I used the pencil tool to trace around the entire property perimeter creating a shape on the face of the jpeg. I turned the Face Styles to x-ray so I could see through the shape and used it like tracing paper to copy my Topo lines "up" onto my tracing paper.

Once all my topo-lines were traced from property line to property line. I started using the Push/Pull tool to pull up each section from the street at 2' intervals. Still a couple of problems in the details, related to my lines not being straight.


Talk me off this ledge!-topoofllot2.jpg
__________________
Can correctly identify Shinola 3 out of 5 times*
*Under ideal conditions

Some days, my Life needs a Rewind/Erase Button.

Last edited by CplDevilDog; 05-31-2011 at 08:55 PM.
CplDevilDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2011, 08:57 PM   #23
Stay-at-home GC
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh,PA
Posts: 638
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


Actually I wish it was easy to do as I made it sound. I'm no SU expert and I've been beating my head against it for the last hour or so
__________________
Can correctly identify Shinola 3 out of 5 times*
*Under ideal conditions

Some days, my Life needs a Rewind/Erase Button.
CplDevilDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2011, 09:39 PM   #24
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 116
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


Looks nice. When you finalize your plan you'll be able to move about the 3d model to get a feel for how it will turn out.

I've seen some impressive stuff done with sketch-up. I never took the time to learn it and don't even have a copy on this computer.

Are you still leaning toward a poured wall? Here is a photo of one of my DIY walls.

pls8xx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2011, 10:53 PM   #25
Stay-at-home GC
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh,PA
Posts: 638
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


I am still liking the monolithic pour ideas. I touched base with a concrete pumping company today and they run both ends of the pump, so I can coordinate the ready-mix trucks and take my time making sure all of my forms are right on the money.

Our Township Zoning official is stopping out tomorrow to give us a final decision on Permit/No Permit. It's about a $600 swing on the Engineering fees but not a big deal.

I'm reading Concrete Wall Forms by Houghton (1910) on Google Books right now. A little dated but free. I find the older books have more information in them than these glossy photo Edutainment Books from the BB Stores anyway.
__________________
Can correctly identify Shinola 3 out of 5 times*
*Under ideal conditions

Some days, my Life needs a Rewind/Erase Button.
CplDevilDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 08:46 AM   #26
Stay-at-home GC
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh,PA
Posts: 638
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


So after their site visit yesterday, the Township is still declining to require a permit (I'm not complaining, but WOW ).

I guess my next step is some solid Working Drawings of my walls? Should I mock them in up in SketchUp and then run them by the Engineer or let the Engineer do them in CAD and then transfer them into SketchUp? I'm going to ask my Engineer the same question in a second here.

On the issue of Formed and Poured walls, the "Brick Ledge" where I will be setting my stone veneer on seems like an extra complicated detail. Essentially I would have to form two walls, one on top of the other with spreaders holding up the second wall? I am considering pouring them flat faced and then stacking CMU across the front to get my ledge but then that brings back the multiple set up/tear down issue.

If anyone knows a good reference on Poured Wall Forms I would be happy to look into that. I keep finding lots of good books on pouring slabs and footers but nothing showing complex things like angles, steps, and changing top elevations.

Thanks
__________________
Can correctly identify Shinola 3 out of 5 times*
*Under ideal conditions

Some days, my Life needs a Rewind/Erase Button.
CplDevilDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2011, 07:38 AM   #27
Stay-at-home GC
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh,PA
Posts: 638
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


Anyone want to play "Name That Rock"?

So I have several tons of this rock on site. The original owner had it carted in from somewhere. I would like to reuse it, but I need to find a matching or semi-matching source.

Anyone want to take a stab at naming it? My first wild A$$ guess is Granitic Schist

Talk me off this ledge!-rockid1diy.jpg

Talk me off this ledge!-rockid2diy.jpg

Talk me off this ledge!-rockid4diy.jpg
__________________
Can correctly identify Shinola 3 out of 5 times*
*Under ideal conditions

Some days, my Life needs a Rewind/Erase Button.
CplDevilDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2011, 09:43 AM   #28
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 116
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


Formwork:

Forms for walls consist of a surface material, usually made up of panels, that give a flat surface for the concrete to mold to, and some method to keep the panels in place and resist the lateral pressure of the wet concrete.

Many homeowners think they can brace the panels from outside the walls. This might work for a wall of 1ft height. Much higher and it is almost sure that the forms will fail and a blow-out will occur. One should consider the magnitude of lateral force that wet concrete applies to the forms.

Wet concrete operates as a liquid. And for liquids, at any given depth, the side pressure is equal to the downward pressure. The weight of concrete seldom exceeds 150lb per cu ft. A cubic foot has 1728 cubic inches, so a cubic inch of concrete weighs approximately 0.087 lb. Thus a column of concrete 1”x1” x 24” would weigh 24 times 0.087 or 2.08 lb. Suppose you set braces along the form panels at 1ft spacing. Each brace point must resist the lateral force applied to a square foot. A square foot has 144 square inches, so 144 times 2.08 = 300 lb against each brace point where the depth of wet concrete is 2ft. Double the height of the wall pour to 4ft and the lateral pressure grows to 600 lb per brace point. Are you starting to see why homeowners run in to trouble?

Most modern walls forms use some type of “snap tie”. There are several different types. Some are made to work with a particular forming system, others are more generic in nature. Some are made of rods, others are flat strips of steel. They all go through the wall space and connect the equal but opposite pressure of both sides of the forms. Google “snap ties” to get a better idea of what they are and how they work.

All snap ties require hardware to use and it isn’t practical to buy all that is needed for a one-time use. Look for what is available for rent in your area.

There was no cheap rental in my area, so I substituted a replacement for the snap ties with materials available at hardware stores.
pls8xx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2011, 11:44 AM   #29
Stay-at-home GC
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh,PA
Posts: 638
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


Thanks for everybody's help and encouragement so far. Before we start breaking our arms patting ourselves on our backs I thought I would start a running total of Stats:

Hours of Hand Digging: 8
Tools Broken: 1 (Wooden Handle Digging Bar)
Dollars Spent: $1400
Dollars DIY Saved : approx $300
Little red ants who can't take a joke: 10,000

I think I am going to formalize this into a spreadsheet. After I'm gone it might serve as a warning to others
__________________
Can correctly identify Shinola 3 out of 5 times*
*Under ideal conditions

Some days, my Life needs a Rewind/Erase Button.
CplDevilDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2011, 12:31 PM   #30
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 116
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Talk me off this ledge!


There is another possible treatment of this slope, one that would be cheaper than tall retaining walls but needing a much greater labor on your part.

If solid bedrock is near the surface, a series of short 16 inch walls could be constructed across the slope for a terraced look. Walls of this height could be done 3.5 inches wide and locked to the bedrock by drilling the rock and inserting rebar. Thus no additional footing would be required. The walls could be constructed in sections that could be completed in a day’s time. The limited amount of concrete needed for each section would something that could be mixed by hand, saving the cost of pumping. The forms would be easy and cheap to build and you would need only enough forms to do a section rather than all the walls. The flats above each wall would only be 3 to 4 feet wide; not wide enough for most uses, but wide enough to plant and maintain.

Advertisement

pls8xx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brick Ledge when using cinder block DaveMo Building & Construction 5 07-13-2011 10:46 AM
What is the cost of adding brick ledge to new construction? toddtx Building & Construction 4 01-13-2011 07:04 AM
remodeling basement.....question on building ledge bigbrad123 Building & Construction 2 10-20-2010 12:35 PM
Bathroom Alcove Larger than Tub--Old Home--How to build ledge behind tub? IndyRyan Building & Construction 4 02-02-2010 12:24 PM
Need confirmation for supports to Ledge CrossWorks Building & Construction 8 04-22-2009 05:27 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts