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Old 08-12-2008, 02:28 PM   #16
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HPB High Performance Bedding is super


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Originally Posted by KUI****G View Post
Hi there,

Sorry, my job is computer related, so used to point forms, here it goes:

1. your sloping situation is quite similar to our case... sloping outward from houses.. in fact I think this is kind of the norm... otherwise, everyone got wet basement... but the key is: you need to know how your water eventually go... there should be a way to exit to the outside street drain vent.... otherwise all water is at the backyard outmost edge and no where to go... it won't solve the "water exiting" issue... I suspect your case is similar to ours that the water is being passed between houses on the side and to the outside.... if this is the case, although you think your slope all outward from the house, there is really one exception to make this water movement possible... i.e. the area between houses the point from outside backyard to your house, it slope reverse.... if this is the case... you need a vent and underground pipe there. and you can setup the pipe behind a retain wall flower bed like us... gee... I may need to post you some pictures to explain.... ok... will try to find my damn digitial camera....

2. I never heard of a manual stone cutting device...except the big expensive chopper... I really suspect one will work consider stone is no easy matter.... see pavingexpert.com to see all possible cutting methods.... I didn't use gas cutter either same reasons as yours... I use only electric... they are slower but work...


anyway... need to go to meeting... talk later...

now meeting finished...

3. screening as you goes seems the way to go for HPB and we do the same ... and slopping following existing ground seems also a good idea and we do the same except for point 1. mentioned.... in fact... I saw contractors use retain wall system to raise the patio to form a level platform, this method will work and requires less measuring work... but looks not as nice in my opinion.... they method you are attempting is more time consuming but have a better look and feel in my opinion....

4. I just google the stones you are using... good choice... it is kind if antique like... which I highly supported for reasons: great for DIYers as you don't need perfect cutting... broken edge here or there does not affect the overall looking. well your pavers is 3"somthing thick.... Mine is 2 3/4" thick which is already quite thick... yours even thicker... you certainly need to think ahead on how you handle the cutting... if you are like me: doing curving everywhere... you are going to be like me: have a hell of cutting time.... At this stage I can tell you: the cutting job is more difficult and time consuming comparing to the laying job... you can lay a large area in quite a short time... but you cannot do a lot of cutting in a short time... you can only cut so many stones at certain fix rate... this is no difference to contractors... that is why they use the bulk cutting techniques most of them which will cut the most but won't get the best result, how they do it is they lay the stones first without any concern to the outline edge shape... then they use the monster cutter to cut the stones right along they have lay by slowing moving one to next then they lay outside course on the cutted shape... This method is super fast, can finish in minutes... the problem is you are going to have small cutted pieces here or there... and if you pay attention... most contracted jobs have small pieces here or there.... I am so poud that in my project, I have no one single small piece in the 600sq. ft area... That no contractor will do for you because it cause them a big deal of money making time... so DIY has this advantage. But then most people who wouldn't careless about this.... but a project with no small pieces will last longer in theory because small pieces have higher potential of loosing up and affecting the integrity of all the stones....

5. Sounds like you are like me use strings and sticks to setup for digging.... this method is very good... but my neighbour and his contractor friend kind of laugh at me saying that was totally unnecessary and saying I was digging too deep.... gee... I am so glad I ignore their comment.... digging a right slope gives you so much advantageous: 1. as water flow underneath the HPB can follow the same way it flow...2. it makes your HPB laying thickness consistance..... I have a few low traffic spots which I didn't follow the minimum depth requirement due to lazy digging.... hopefully... those area won't have weed in the future...




Again Good lucks....

computer related?? me too.. what is it that you do?

take a look at this : http://www.pavingexpert.com/cutting.htm and scroll down to bock and slab splitter.. i guess this is the technical term they use ... but I think this is what I am going to use.. easer.. safer and cleaner, however, maybe time consuming.. but I'd rather keep my fingers

You are right about slopping.. It is slopped to the side of the house.. between me and my neighbour.. so I will maintain the same level.. it eventually goes out to the street.. however .. if you look at the back yard.. it is also slopped towards the greenbelt.. so I am assuming..the slope between the 2 houses is maintained even within the greenbelt.. (which is 20 meters thick) .. because you are right.. water will stand still if no draignage is provided.. (maybe that explains the amount of mosquitoes we get in our area).


I used the mega bergerac since I thought this is the design from permacon and it looks like there isn't much cutting.. so I used the same materials as recommended. I have however made some adjustment to the design so not sure how it will go once implemented.

go to www.permacon.ca and under inspirational, you will find a PDF file called ideas. the design I've chosen is called expanse or something
the first one in the list.

Let me know if you have any comments about it.

Thanks

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Old 08-12-2008, 03:25 PM   #17
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HPB High Performance Bedding is super


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Originally Posted by rabih_00 View Post
computer related?? me too.. what is it that you do?

take a look at this : http://www.pavingexpert.com/cutting.htm and scroll down to bock and slab splitter.. i guess this is the technical term they use ... but I think this is what I am going to use.. easer.. safer and cleaner, however, maybe time consuming.. but I'd rather keep my fingers

You are right about slopping.. It is slopped to the side of the house.. between me and my neighbour.. so I will maintain the same level.. it eventually goes out to the street.. however .. if you look at the back yard.. it is also slopped towards the greenbelt.. so I am assuming..the slope between the 2 houses is maintained even within the greenbelt.. (which is 20 meters thick) .. because you are right.. water will stand still if no draignage is provided.. (maybe that explains the amount of mosquitoes we get in our area).


I used the mega bergerac since I thought this is the design from permacon and it looks like there isn't much cutting.. so I used the same materials as recommended. I have however made some adjustment to the design so not sure how it will go once implemented.

go to www.permacon.ca and under inspirational, you will find a PDF file called ideas. the design I've chosen is called expanse or something
the first one in the list.

Let me know if you have any comments about it.

Thanks

I think you are talking about renting the splitter, right? this guy is real expensive and I don't think HD sell them anyway.... or they do sell cheap one nowadays.... if so I would want to place a visit also becuase I can use it for my next year front yard/drive way project...

Orignially, I have the same idea of following the same ground slope to let water run away following how it does it before the paving project.... then I lay as I go... but when it comes to the part where I need to change the slope to follow the water exiting route... I laid a little bit... the result is real trouble... because all of a sudden the surface is not flat no more... even it is the only wave, but this wave make the installation looks so unprofessional and also make all the area in that part unusable because of this sharp change of grade... then that morning I sit down and think about what to do able it.... then bingo ... this idea comes up: setup a flower bet along side and use it as retaining walls and setup two steps of stairs.... then make all water goes to the end of yard using a flat surface grade away from house and put a drain there and have a drain piple install behind the flower bed and direct the water back to the exiting door... man... this is one of the brilliant idea I ever come up with in my life... and the result is amasing... everyone say it is professional when they see the drain vent and the way water leaving our yard.... I am not sure if you need to do somthing similar.... but making patio surface up and down is definitely not a good idea... wait till you see it... that is why contractors, the hat, just retain wall it up a flat/level surface to avoid all these headaches...

Also, electric cutting pavers is less scarer than people usually think... in fact, in my opinion, it is safer than using wood circular,table,miter saw for cutting wood, base on my experience, I do think wet cutting is easier/safter though due to the amount of dusts in air for dry cutting....

as per what computer related job I was doing... I am a database administrator.... my interests though is in renovation....

Last edited by KUIPORNG; 08-12-2008 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 08-12-2008, 05:05 PM   #18
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HPB High Performance Bedding is super


Quote:
Originally Posted by KUI****G View Post
I think you are talking about renting the splitter, right? this guy is real expensive and I don't think HD sell them anyway.... or they do sell cheap one nowadays.... if so I would want to place a visit also becuase I can use it for my next year front yard/drive way project...

Orignially, I have the same idea of following the same ground slope to let water run away following how it does it before the paving project.... then I lay as I go... but when it comes to the part where I need to change the slope to follow the water exiting route... I laid a little bit... the result is real trouble... because all of a sudden the surface is not flat no more... even it is the only wave, but this wave make the installation looks so unprofessional and also make all the area in that part unusable because of this sharp change of grade... then that morning I sit down and think about what to do able it.... then bingo ... this idea comes up: setup a flower bet along side and use it as retaining walls and setup two steps of stairs.... then make all water goes to the end of yard using a flat surface grade away from house and put a drain there and have a drain piple install behind the flower bed and direct the water back to the exiting door... man... this is one of the brilliant idea I ever come up with in my life... and the result is amasing... everyone say it is professional when they see the drain vent and the way water leaving our yard.... I am not sure if you need to do somthing similar.... but making patio surface up and down is definitely not a good idea... wait till you see it... that is why contractors, the hat, just retain wall it up a flat/level surface to avoid all these headaches...

I think I know what you mean, and now that you mentioned this.. the side of the house is pretty steap, you can actually see it slopping down on the side.. oh boy.. here's another challenge.. one more than I needed.I am having a flower bed on the side.. but not a raised one.. since if I maintain a flat surface on the side, it will be higher than what the lawn is now..
Mmm.. well, I guess a raised flower bed wouldn't be so bad after all ..

I think they told me 21 $ per day for the splitter,.. I need to confirm that though. he said this is the cheapest way of doing it. (another reason why I will be using it)
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:27 AM   #19
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HPB High Performance Bedding is super


http://s201.photobucket.com/albums/a...kyard%20patio/

raised flower bed with retaining wall blocks (allan block I used) is easier than people thought for building... I built mine and the entry stairs in one week (after and before work time).

$21 per day... this is cheap and good deal... I should have done that... I thought it is much more expensive as they charge wet saw for $71 per day.... I could have save myself a lot of effort... gee.... you beat me on this one....
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:24 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KUI****G View Post
http://s201.photobucket.com/albums/a...kyard%20patio/

raised flower bed with retaining wall blocks (allan block I used) is easier than people thought for building... I built mine and the entry stairs in one week (after and before work time).

$21 per day... this is cheap and good deal... I should have done that... I thought it is much more expensive as they charge wet saw for $71 per day.... I could have save myself a lot of effort... gee.... you beat me on this one....

waw.. pretty nice stuff you are doing there. I am not close to that stage. and now being delayed more.

I have few questions if you do not mind:

- Did you dig for the steps and how much?
- how wide and high is each step?
- why didn't you flush the first step with the threshold on your door so it would be easier for the kids to take the first step out?
- did you build them on top of your patio? did you start the project with the steps first?
- did you rent the water saw?
- did you build the flower bed before the patio?

Now to answer your comment about the splitter, I am not sure where you are located, but HD offers the splitter in my area for 21 $, I am in Ontario, canada.

I will however still need a saw since I am planning to keep the diamond in the middle.

more bad news for me is that I received a call from beaver valley and more delays on the shipment of the stones.. so I am still waiting, mabe I can plan the flower bed meanwhile.

I hope you do not mind the mass questions here, but I'd rather ask someone who has done it before then just ask HD associate

Thanks for all your help.
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:46 AM   #21
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as I said before...here it goes:

- Did you dig for the steps and how much? As I have two stairs, one for the entry, one for the home exit to patio, not sure which one you asked... but they are kind of similar....: You need to build from bottom up... the first step is the most important and most time consuming... you need to dig a trench for the first step. the trench should be deep enough for the lowest block to underneath the finished ground a little bit as well as have 6" of HPB below it. Your first trench does not need to be from the end to end though... this is difficult to explain, but go to allanblock.com and read their installation vedio, I learnt it from there... After the first steps, the other steps are piece of cakes... don't worry about the trench you dig being too ugly, it will looks nice and flat once you put stuff (HPB) on it...

how wide and high is each step?

- min width is 1 ft. but the wider the better. High is 6". try find a retaining blocks with cicular shape cap. I used Allan block and they don't have and make my cutting extremely difficult because they are 4" thick...

- why didn't you flush the first step with the threshold on your door so it would be easier for the kids to take the first step out?

two reasons, 1. no water going into home by any chance, 2. saving on material and don't need to make the platform larger... as you know, the more steps you have, the larger the base you have to build, which may waste you more useful patio space. the setup I have now is good... My wife didn't complain about that aspect... believe me... she is picky...

did you build them on top of your patio? did you start the project with the steps first?

- Absolutely not... don't do that... if you build on top of patio.. stairs sturture can fail, and fall apart... the key is the first step (lowest one) has to be embedded underground a bit to substain the structure... as you are not using any concrete cement here all base on interlock... (excepting cementing the cap pieces). So build the stair first before laying the patios... but you can lay some patios first close to the stairs so that you can get a better idea in terms of measuring height/width etc. where the stairs has to be start as the first step (lowest step) must be above the patio surface approx 6" or less... for professional look...

did you rent the water saw?

no, got both new from Ebay, approx $40 bucks each include everything... can't beat Ebay on some of the stuff.

did you build the flower bed before the patio?

You need to build the flower bed before the patio against them, but you can lay patio on other parts of the yard not touching them and that was how we did it...

Did you finished digging... for us this is really at least 30% of the job....and you mentioned very little about this, I hope you didn't skip this part.

Good lucks...
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:57 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KUI****G View Post
as I said before...here it goes:

- Did you dig for the steps and how much? As I have two stairs, one for the entry, one for the home exit to patio, not sure which one you asked... but they are kind of similar....: You need to build from bottom up... the first step is the most important and most time consuming... you need to dig a trench for the first step. the trench should be deep enough for the lowest block to underneath the finished ground a little bit as well as have 6" of HPB below it. Your first trench does not need to be from the end to end though... this is difficult to explain, but go to allanblock.com and read their installation vedio, I learnt it from there... After the first steps, the other steps are piece of cakes... don't worry about the trench you dig being too ugly, it will looks nice and flat once you put stuff (HPB) on it...

how wide and high is each step?

- min width is 1 ft. but the wider the better. High is 6". try find a retaining blocks with cicular shape cap. I used Allan block and they don't have and make my cutting extremely difficult because they are 4" thick...

- why didn't you flush the first step with the threshold on your door so it would be easier for the kids to take the first step out?

two reasons, 1. no water going into home by any chance, 2. saving on material and don't need to make the platform larger... as you know, the more steps you have, the larger the base you have to build, which may waste you more useful patio space. the setup I have now is good... My wife didn't complain about that aspect... believe me... she is picky...

did you build them on top of your patio? did you start the project with the steps first?

- Absolutely not... don't do that... if you build on top of patio.. stairs sturture can fail, and fall apart... the key is the first step (lowest one) has to be embedded underground a bit to substain the structure... as you are not using any concrete cement here all base on interlock... (excepting cementing the cap pieces). So build the stair first before laying the patios... but you can lay some patios first close to the stairs so that you can get a better idea in terms of measuring height/width etc. where the stairs has to be start as the first step (lowest step) must be above the patio surface approx 6" or less... for professional look...

did you rent the water saw?

no, got both new from Ebay, approx $40 bucks each include everything... can't beat Ebay on some of the stuff.

did you build the flower bed before the patio?

You need to build the flower bed before the patio against them, but you can lay patio on other parts of the yard not touching them and that was how we did it...

Did you finished digging... for us this is really at least 30% of the job....and you mentioned very little about this, I hope you didn't skip this part.

Good lucks...
lol ..I surely did not skip digging.
I got a bobcat to do the digging for me.. as I know this will take too long .. and we are already in Mid august .. and it is getting colder .. so the window I had was small and Idid not want to waste time . (this is the reasno I give for everyone, the true reason is that I am lazy there.. I just said it).

The problem I had with the bobcat is that we had a rainfall the night before.. and it was all muddy.. so it wasn't really dug as good as I wanted it to be.. and it left deep trenches everywhere it went.. so I am repairing those now..

the are is already all dug out including the steps area.. so I am assuming no need to dig deeper for the steps, i can just lay down the blocks to the height required, back fill with HPB put the pavers and the caps on and statr building the steps. I think I am getting ovewhelmed with this.. I better have a plan so not to mess up anything.

Thanks
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:09 PM   #23
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You guys are confusing interlocking concrete pavers with precast concrete "stepping stones".

You might be able to get away with HSB or some other base and no sand for a casual patio if you are using interlocking paving stones. If you are doing something really serious like a driveway, street or airport taxiway for a 747, you will need a conpacted base followed by a 1" sand setting bed for the smaller interlocking pavers. Interlocking pavers are 8000 to 12000 psi.

The larger (over 10" dimension)pieces should be put on a base that is compatible with the dimensions, strength and reinforcing(if any) since you are intially setting them on a relaively hard surface. The larger units are usually 3000 to 5000 psi.

The two types of surfaces are different in their mechnaics and ability to handle heavy loads and proper installation standards and you CANNOT confuse the installation and base/setting bed materials.

Dick
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:23 PM   #24
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see this link

http://www.obc.mah.gov.on.ca/Asset207.aspx

looks like HPB has some ground as the above paper showing some company tried to use HPB for some public projects of some sort...

also if you google High Performance Bedding and looks closely, you will find happy customers using HPB for the driveway... I remember they said it needs to be deeper though...but will work...

well .... but you may be right... for me I only care about my patio... not the international airports ....

may be I will take a few pictures of my patio every year to see if there is any wave...

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Old 08-13-2008, 01:41 PM   #25
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lol ..I surely did not skip digging.
I got a bobcat to do the digging for me.. as I know this will take too long .. and we are already in Mid august .. and it is getting colder .. so the window I had was small and Idid not want to waste time . (this is the reasno I give for everyone, the true reason is that I am lazy there.. I just said it).

The problem I had with the bobcat is that we had a rainfall the night before.. and it was all muddy.. so it wasn't really dug as good as I wanted it to be.. and it left deep trenches everywhere it went.. so I am repairing those now..

the are is already all dug out including the steps area.. so I am assuming no need to dig deeper for the steps, i can just lay down the blocks to the height required, back fill with HPB put the pavers and the caps on and statr building the steps. I think I am getting ovewhelmed with this.. I better have a plan so not to mess up anything.

Thanks
I live in Markham, I would like to rent the splitter for my flower bed cap cutting ...

thanks
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:54 PM   #26
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I live in Markham, I would like to rent the splitter for my flower bed cap cutting ...

thanks
I saw this at HD on Bayview and Elgin mills (closest to where I live), but another one I saw was in Aurora .. Bayview and Wellington.
I am pretty sure however you will find it in any HD, do not look for a yellow splitter, the one they have is blue

I tested it on my 3.25" stone and it worked like a charm, it just needed to be adjusted properly.
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:18 AM   #27
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HPB High Performance Bedding is super


Anyone know if there would be issues using HPB footing/base type duty and frost implications.

I am making some stone pillars and my
masonry
guy who will do the part above the base told me to dig out a hole 4 feet deep hole with 2.5 feet square sides. Fill it with concrete extending above grade about 8 inches using a square frame..

Well I dug the holes (luckily it was sand underneath) and now realize that is is going to take a lot of concrete. So I thought instead maybe fill it up With HPB to about 8 inches below grade.Then I use concrete to make a 16" in total (8 inches below grade 8 above grade) base.

My only worry is frost.

Also I plan on sticking a steel post into the middle to support the pillar but my
masonry
guy says have it sticking out only a foot or two above above the base. Wouldn't higher be better considering it is a planned 6 foot high pillar.
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:38 AM   #28
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Your question is definitely requires some knowledge professional to answer. For normal DIYers like me is kind of not qualify answering.

You may want to also post your question in the other site, (google "high performance bedding" and you will get it) reason is this HPB terms really a trade mark from a Ontario company, so probably more Canadian people know what HPB referring to.... I doubt if our neighbour know this term at all... and this site I have to say have a lot of professionals from the US but not that much from Canada. Don't get me want, they probably know and use the same... but they may not call this the same term and know what they are.
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:16 PM   #29
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In my area (Markham) much of the ground is composed of a clay/dirt mixture (and whatever else the builder decided to leave in there). With many recommending HPB gravel as the base and sub base for patio pavers and slabs, how is HPB gravel for freezing and thawing (meaning do the pavers lift at all). The reason behind this question is that won't the water/moisture get trapped in the HPB layer (6 ") between the paver/slab and the clay dirt (clay doesn't have the best drainage properties), and then the water/moisture trapped inbetween when frozen will expand, wont it?
Any insight or experience?
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:35 AM   #30
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In my area (Markham) much of the ground is composed of a clay/dirt mixture (and whatever else the builder decided to leave in there). With many recommending HPB gravel as the base and sub base for patio pavers and slabs, how is HPB gravel for freezing and thawing (meaning do the pavers lift at all). The reason behind this question is that won't the water/moisture get trapped in the HPB layer (6 ") between the paver/slab and the clay dirt (clay doesn't have the best drainage properties), and then the water/moisture trapped inbetween when frozen will expand, wont it?
Any insight or experience?
the work in my backyard is as solid as day 1... not shift... or anything... I don't know the physics but that is my experience.

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