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Old 07-04-2008, 10:10 AM   #1
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HPB High Performance Bedding is super


In case you don't know, after using this product for sub-base of paving... I found out this product is super and should really be considered the norm of sub-base in the future, this are the reasoning:

- 1. this product does not require compacting... just lay on the ground (the ground should be compacted) then your pavers... at the thickness approx 4" or more.... no sand and no nothing... and no compacting....

- 2. once you lay the paver on an area... you can walk on the pavers no problem... due to the strength of those 1/4" rocks... not sand which people used in the past...

-3. no multiple subbase maters...different size of rocks... sand... limestone... save on the estimation nightmare... and different delivery charges... and different spots on site to house different materials....

it is a little bit more expensive.. but for the benefits above... you should end up saving on both delivery charges and labour and skills...etc...

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Old 07-04-2008, 10:23 AM   #2
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HPB High Performance Bedding is super


Ok, since I cannot find any pictures of HPB and limited info in general, maybe you can add some more info.

What is the difference between this and simply crushed and washed limestone of ~4.5 mm diameter?

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Old 07-04-2008, 11:48 AM   #3
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Ok, since I cannot find any pictures of HPB and limited info in general, maybe you can add some more info.

What is the difference between this and simply crushed and washed limestone of ~4.5 mm diameter?
It may be the same but I can descript the physical appearance of the HPB then you can judge:

- it compose of a fix size rocks/limestones particles, either 1/4" or 3/8", no dust.... all the same size.
- this guy is flessible enough so it can be used for screening... and strong enough to hold pavers without slipping like sand and absolutely do not need compacting to achieve that.... I don't know the physics why it can behave like that... but the fact is it behaves like that....

does that answer your question? as I am not a professional landscaper... I can only answer you from a consumer point of view who does not know all the terminology....
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Old 07-04-2008, 12:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KUI****G View Post
It may be the same but I can descript the physical appearance of the HPB then you can judge:

- it compose of a fix size rocks/limestones particles, either 1/4" or 3/8", no dust.... all the same size.
- this guy is flessible enough so it can be used for screening... and strong enough to hold pavers without slipping like sand and absolutely do not need compacting to achieve that.... I don't know the physics why it can behave like that... but the fact is it behaves like that....

does that answer your question? as I am not a professional landscaper... I can only answer you from a consumer point of view who does not know all the terminology....
thanks.

So, what it sounds like to me is that all it really is is crushed and washed limestone of a particular small size. Crushed stone has stability because of the rough angular surfaces. In contrast, pea gravel is round and smooth so it settles a great amount until it reaches a point that all the larger open spaces are filled. Even then, when it is walked on or such, the stones will easily slide past one another and move out of the way causing an irregular surface.

Limestone , due to the rough angular sides, does not slide well against another piece of the same material so even when not manually compacted, it reaches of natural point of settling and self support that is quite sturdy. When walked upon, the great amount of friction will cause it to be more supportive than the pea gravel and will not push out of the way as easily.

The part that maked it's use more difficult is;

it is more slightly more difficult to level due to that same friction and its size.

I have seen on one of the building shows on TV where a drive was made using such material but it was compacted as well. Then it was soaked with a hot bitumen mixture. The installer claimed it was better than asphalt due to the high stone (of this particular style) content.

stone of this size has a great amount of use. Can't say I have ever seen it used as a base for pavers but it does sound as if it would work well.


I, as well, am merely a consumer but have a bit of construction experience in my life.
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Old 07-04-2008, 12:55 PM   #5
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HPB High Performance Bedding is super


Thanks for covering the physics part of this topics.... and I think you are very close to if not already hit the target of the physics of this matter.

yes, screening may be a little bit more difficult than sand, in my case, it does requires two people holding a horizontal wood bar as you are right it is heavy but this can only be done once for a very large area. and the result is very flat , take may be a couple of minutes to screen an area which takes you hours to lay the pavers...

the heavy nature of screening has a very important benefit also: once you screen you don't need to worry about the surface got disturbed by wind/rain..etc. as long as no human/dogs/etc. walk on it... like in my case, I screen 2,3 days ago and can still lay pavers after that.... no problem....

also the heavy nature of screening also allow you to lay the paver, and use plastic hammer to fine tune its levelling at the outer courses no problem, as the outer course provide more flessibility because HPB can move a little bit... the inner courses are all firm and steady and cannot be change but that's why you can walk on those after laying... I didn't do sand before, but could think it will be a problem if you hammer the pavers on sand as they are kind of too flexible for that ....

Last edited by KUIPORNG; 07-04-2008 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 08-06-2008, 11:13 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by KUI****G View Post
Thanks for covering the physics part of this topics.... and I think you are very close to if not already hit the target of the physics of this matter.

yes, screening may be a little bit more difficult than sand, in my case, it does requires two people holding a horizontal wood bar as you are right it is heavy but this can only be done once for a very large area. and the result is very flat , take may be a couple of minutes to screen an area which takes you hours to lay the pavers...

the heavy nature of screening has a very important benefit also: once you screen you don't need to worry about the surface got disturbed by wind/rain..etc. as long as no human/dogs/etc. walk on it... like in my case, I screen 2,3 days ago and can still lay pavers after that.... no problem....

also the heavy nature of screening also allow you to lay the paver, and use plastic hammer to fine tune its levelling at the outer courses no problem, as the outer course provide more flessibility because HPB can move a little bit... the inner courses are all firm and steady and cannot be change but that's why you can walk on those after laying... I didn't do sand before, but could think it will be a problem if you hammer the pavers on sand as they are kind of too flexible for that ....

Good information in that thread.
I had bought the HBP but also bought with it some screening. did not know this is not needed. so now I am stuck with 2 tons of screening that I do not know what to do with. can I still use it on top of the HBP, I have been told I cannot since it might sip in between the HBP gravel and unlevel the patio in the future.

I am currently trying to level the HBP and I do find it hard to do so, any tips on how this can be done easily?

Thanks
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:48 PM   #7
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HPB High Performance Bedding is super


Yes it is a great product.... oK...

1. I don't think you should use your regular (probably limestone) screening on HPB. because this may defeat HPB functionalities/physics...etc... one I know is HPB provide excellant water drainage...i.e. no water will remain on the surface to facilate weed growing... once you add screening...this may not be the case anymore.... and may be other side effect like you describe.... for whatever screening you have... you can use it in some other isolated project....

2. You are right about screening is more difficult... but it is not un handleable either... do this: use a 1 by 6 deck wook board... cut a few peices with different length, one is say 8' , one is say 6', and one say 3'...etc. at both end, cut a paver height square to facilate screening.... use these wood bars to screen... it will work very well... for sure not as easy as sand... but it will work very well.. and it offer advantage which sand cannot be... like once you screened, it won't be moved by wind/rain...etc... as the HPB is heavy and you can lay your bricks in many days... as long as no one/animals walk on it... I didn't try other ways of screening... this is the way work for me ... other ways may not work due to the heavy nature of the HPB....

enjoy your patio project...
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Old 08-07-2008, 03:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KUI****G View Post
Yes it is a great product.... oK...

1. I don't think you should use your regular (probably limestone) screening on HPB. because this may defeat HPB functionalities/physics...etc... one I know is HPB provide excellant water drainage...i.e. no water will remain on the surface to facilate weed growing... once you add screening...this may not be the case anymore.... and may be other side effect like you describe.... for whatever screening you have... you can use it in some other isolated project....

2. You are right about screening is more difficult... but it is not un handleable either... do this: use a 1 by 6 deck wook board... cut a few peices with different length, one is say 8' , one is say 6', and one say 3'...etc. at both end, cut a paver height square to facilate screening.... use these wood bars to screen... it will work very well... for sure not as easy as sand... but it will work very well.. and it offer advantage which sand cannot be... like once you screened, it won't be moved by wind/rain...etc... as the HPB is heavy and you can lay your bricks in many days... as long as no one/animals walk on it... I didn't try other ways of screening... this is the way work for me ... other ways may not work due to the heavy nature of the HPB....

enjoy your patio project...
Thanks for the tip.. I am not sure however I understand your explanation.
why do you need differet lenght of these wood planks ... is it to create a slope

Aso what did you use for your edges? The guy at beaver valley told me to use plastic edging.. and hammer the spikes into the HPB? will this hold with time? HPB gravel won't move around once done?

Thanks for all your help and tips..
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:17 AM   #9
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HPB High Performance Bedding is super


I am more happy to help, this is part of the fun of DIY. Here it goes:

different length of wood piece is for you to set up different size of screening area... too long won't fit some time... of course the longer the better if it fits because you will end up have a big screened area done in shortest time.... small piece is useful in areas which hardly fit... you use two side either real pavers or temporary 2x4 as support for the screening wood bar... put the level on the bar to make sure that is the slope you want... then screening by sliding the screen wood along the supports on the two sides.... if you use long screen wood bar, you need two people as they are heavy....

yes I used the cheapest plastic wood edge (nake name T-bone) somthing like $7 per piece in Beaver Valley... and spike it to the HPB like what you were told... for me... it is ok because I used quite big size pavers somthing like 12" by 6" as the edging caurse... they hardly moved... the plastic edging is more than adequate.... but you need to think about what do you put on top of the the trench where you hammer the edging plastic, I put small river rocks ($6 per bag) which is easy to do and looks quite nice.

I assume you will use quality pavers rather than those cheap ones which most people used which are relatively small... as DIYers normally use better materials,, the hat they spent their effort anyway, why save a few bucks for an not so nice job... if you used those small pieces... it does not stand as firm as the big edge course I suppose....

anyway.... I think I have may be a few more weeks to go then I can post some pictures....

good luck to your project....
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Old 08-11-2008, 11:25 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KUI****G View Post
I am more happy to help, this is part of the fun of DIY. Here it goes:

different length of wood piece is for you to set up different size of screening area... too long won't fit some time... of course the longer the better if it fits because you will end up have a big screened area done in shortest time.... small piece is useful in areas which hardly fit... you use two side either real pavers or temporary 2x4 as support for the screening wood bar... put the level on the bar to make sure that is the slope you want... then screening by sliding the screen wood along the supports on the two sides.... if you use long screen wood bar, you need two people as they are heavy....

yes I used the cheapest plastic wood edge (nake name T-bone) somthing like $7 per piece in Beaver Valley... and spike it to the HPB like what you were told... for me... it is ok because I used quite big size pavers somthing like 12" by 6" as the edging caurse... they hardly moved... the plastic edging is more than adequate.... but you need to think about what do you put on top of the the trench where you hammer the edging plastic, I put small river rocks ($6 per bag) which is easy to do and looks quite nice.

I assume you will use quality pavers rather than those cheap ones which most people used which are relatively small... as DIYers normally use better materials,, the hat they spent their effort anyway, why save a few bucks for an not so nice job... if you used those small pieces... it does not stand as firm as the big edge course I suppose....

anyway.... I think I have may be a few more weeks to go then I can post some pictures....

good luck to your project....

Thanks for your reply.

I am using the Mega bergerac from permacon.. the edges are the D size which is beleive it or not.. 14x14 .. huge slab.. you are right.. I do not think these will go anywhere.

I will take your advise and use those pieces of wood.. it sounds like a great idea.

I am struggling with thye colours now.. the ones I ordeed look nothing like the one I received. I know the colour could not match exactly, but I ordered beige and I received grey.. !!!

In any case, this is my first time with such a big project and I do agree a DIYer should use better materials since he is savign on the labor. this is exactly what I am doing.

Thanks for the tips.. i look forward to seeing your pictures.. wll try to post some myself once I am done.

Thanks for everything.
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Old 08-11-2008, 12:11 PM   #11
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HPB High Performance Bedding is super


Here goes some tips which you may find it useful:

- How to measure for cutting: use a transparent plastic sheet (those use in projector)... place the sheet on the area you need to cut stones, put dot on the points requires cutting, than transfer those markings on the pavers and use crayon to mark on the pavers.... this is the easiest and most accurate rate of measure and cut.

- How to do cutting: I hope you have a better cutter than me, I am using the 7" table wet saw, take down everything with bare saw, I meant those fence, protection shield...etc.... and it cuts quite good.... but would be better if I could have a better saw.

- How to do grading... We slope all our water to the corner of the backyard which we install a drain vent and direct the water through underground pipe to our backyard doorway... which then output to the street drain vent like the normal course.... if you can do that it would be very nice... because try to slope the whole area to direct water to the outside door may be difficult.... underground piple and drain vent is a very nice and practical design making your floor grading flat and professional. Well if you only do a small area rectangular shape, then this may not apply to you. We doing curve shapes here or there of 600 sq. ft... cover 2/3 of the backyard...

- How to do screening... spend your time to screen a good large area before laying the stones, it will save you time and effort when laying... unlike the traditional materials, HPB allow you to step on the stones immediately after laying, so you can step on the laid course to lay stones if necessary...

Good luck... It is a tough job, and I hope you won't give up...
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Old 08-11-2008, 04:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KUI****G View Post
Here goes some tips which you may find it useful:

- How to measure for cutting: use a transparent plastic sheet (those use in projector)... place the sheet on the area you need to cut stones, put dot on the points requires cutting, than transfer those markings on the pavers and use crayon to mark on the pavers.... this is the easiest and most accurate rate of measure and cut.

- How to do cutting: I hope you have a better cutter than me, I am using the 7" table wet saw, take down everything with bare saw, I meant those fence, protection shield...etc.... and it cuts quite good.... but would be better if I could have a better saw.

- How to do grading... We slope all our water to the corner of the backyard which we install a drain vent and direct the water through underground pipe to our backyard doorway... which then output to the street drain vent like the normal course.... if you can do that it would be very nice... because try to slope the whole area to direct water to the outside door may be difficult.... underground piple and drain vent is a very nice and practical design making your floor grading flat and professional. Well if you only do a small area rectangular shape, then this may not apply to you. We doing curve shapes here or there of 600 sq. ft... cover 2/3 of the backyard...

- How to do screening... spend your time to screen a good large area before laying the stones, it will save you time and effort when laying... unlike the traditional materials, HPB allow you to step on the stones immediately after laying, so you can step on the laid course to lay stones if necessary...

Good luck... It is a tough job, and I hope you won't give up...

Thanks for the tips.
I have a large yard and the whole thing is slopped away from the house to the green belt behind my house.. I am trying to maintain the same grading.. I know it is tough.. especially when my kids keep stepping on the leveling strings.. over and over again.. knocking the stakes off

I haven't started cutting yet.. but I saw a manual cuter that I have tried at Home depot.. it is like a guillotine .. not sure if you have ever seen it or not.. but I am not comfortable with using gas powered cutters.. they are heavy... and the smallest mistake would cost you a finger. a table saw is also another option I am looking at.. but I found the manual cutter very easy to use.

I am screening as I go.. since I need to lay down the stones starting at the back of the house .. not muich room there to level a big area without stepping on it.. but once I have some space to step on, I will definitely take your advise..

Great tip regarding the plastic sheet.. never thought about it..

I am waiting for you to post some pictures so I can see the results of your hard work

Thanks again ...
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Old 08-11-2008, 07:26 PM   #13
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HPB High Performance Bedding is super


Hey there rabih, noticed that your using the Mega Bergerac, how is that going for you? I'm actually planning on using the Mega Arbel from Belgard (I guess they are the manufacturer for USA).
We're about to order paver materials...gulp.
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:23 AM   #14
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Hey there rabih, noticed that your using the Mega Bergerac, how is that going for you? I'm actually planning on using the Mega Arbel from Belgard (I guess they are the manufacturer for USA).
We're about to order paver materials...gulp.
it is Darn heavy .. but the good thing is once it is layed down, it won't move .. I actually picked the design from permacon.com, and they called for that type of stones, so I am going to stcik with the plan.
it is an expensive stone though, compared to the others, but I think it is worth it on the long run.

and If you have read that thread, try to use the PB instead of the regular method .. I think once you get the hang of it, it is easier.

Good luck with your project
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:53 AM   #15
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HPB High Performance Bedding is super


Quote:
Originally Posted by rabih_00 View Post
Thanks for the tips.
I have a large yard and the whole thing is slopped away from the house to the green belt behind my house.. I am trying to maintain the same grading.. I know it is tough.. especially when my kids keep stepping on the leveling strings.. over and over again.. knocking the stakes off

I haven't started cutting yet.. but I saw a manual cuter that I have tried at Home depot.. it is like a guillotine .. not sure if you have ever seen it or not.. but I am not comfortable with using gas powered cutters.. they are heavy... and the smallest mistake would cost you a finger. a table saw is also another option I am looking at.. but I found the manual cutter very easy to use.

I am screening as I go.. since I need to lay down the stones starting at the back of the house .. not muich room there to level a big area without stepping on it.. but once I have some space to step on, I will definitely take your advise..

Great tip regarding the plastic sheet.. never thought about it..

I am waiting for you to post some pictures so I can see the results of your hard work

Thanks again ...
Hi there,

Sorry, my job is computer related, so used to point forms, here it goes:

1. your sloping situation is quite similar to our case... sloping outward from houses.. in fact I think this is kind of the norm... otherwise, everyone got wet basement... but the key is: you need to know how your water eventually go... there should be a way to exit to the outside street drain vent.... otherwise all water is at the backyard outmost edge and no where to go... it won't solve the "water exiting" issue... I suspect your case is similar to ours that the water is being passed between houses on the side and to the outside.... if this is the case, although you think your slope all outward from the house, there is really one exception to make this water movement possible... i.e. the area between houses the point from outside backyard to your house, it slope reverse.... if this is the case... you need a vent and underground pipe there. and you can setup the pipe behind a retain wall flower bed like us... gee... I may need to post you some pictures to explain.... ok... will try to find my damn digitial camera....

2. I never heard of a manual stone cutting device...except the big expensive chopper... I really suspect one will work consider stone is no easy matter.... see pavingexpert.com to see all possible cutting methods.... I didn't use gas cutter either same reasons as yours... I use only electric... they are slower but work...


anyway... need to go to meeting... talk later...

now meeting finished...

3. screening as you goes seems the way to go for HPB and we do the same ... and slopping following existing ground seems also a good idea and we do the same except for point 1. mentioned.... in fact... I saw contractors use retain wall system to raise the patio to form a level platform, this method will work and requires less measuring work... but looks not as nice in my opinion.... they method you are attempting is more time consuming but have a better look and feel in my opinion....

4. I just google the stones you are using... good choice... it is kind if antique like... which I highly supported for reasons: great for DIYers as you don't need perfect cutting... broken edge here or there does not affect the overall looking. well your pavers is 3"somthing thick.... Mine is 2 3/4" thick which is already quite thick... yours even thicker... you certainly need to think ahead on how you handle the cutting... if you are like me: doing curving everywhere... you are going to be like me: have a hell of cutting time.... At this stage I can tell you: the cutting job is more difficult and time consuming comparing to the laying job... you can lay a large area in quite a short time... but you cannot do a lot of cutting in a short time... you can only cut so many stones at certain fix rate... this is no difference to contractors... that is why they use the bulk cutting techniques most of them which will cut the most but won't get the best result, how they do it is they lay the stones first without any concern to the outline edge shape... then they use the monster cutter to cut the stones right along they have lay by slowing moving one to next then they lay outside course on the cutted shape... This method is super fast, can finish in minutes... the problem is you are going to have small cutted pieces here or there... and if you pay attention... most contracted jobs have small pieces here or there.... I am so poud that in my project, I have no one single small piece in the 600sq. ft area... That no contractor will do for you because it cause them a big deal of money making time... so DIY has this advantage. But then most people who wouldn't careless about this.... but a project with no small pieces will last longer in theory because small pieces have higher potential of loosing up and affecting the integrity of all the stones....

5. Sounds like you are like me use strings and sticks to setup for digging.... this method is very good... but my neighbour and his contractor friend kind of laugh at me saying that was totally unnecessary and saying I was digging too deep.... gee... I am so glad I ignore their comment.... digging a right slope gives you so much advantageous: 1. as water flow underneath the HPB can follow the same way it flow...2. it makes your HPB laying thickness consistance..... I have a few low traffic spots which I didn't follow the minimum depth requirement due to lazy digging.... hopefully... those area won't have weed in the future...




Again Good lucks....


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