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-   -   Herbacide question - say it aint so. (http://www.diychatroom.com/f16/herbacide-question-say-aint-so-51540/)

brokenhammer 08-24-2009 12:28 AM

Herbacide question - say it aint so.
 
I used some herbacides to clean up vegetation on a fence line a few weeks ago on a rental property I own. A neighbor approached me and said using it killed his pet poodle. He described her as having sores on her face and on her side. Is this possible?
One important detail, which beyond all has me doubting I was the cause. The common fence we share is elevated. I am on the low side of it. There's a concrete retaining wall, about 3 feet up, where his yard ends. I did not spray along this part of the yard, as the concrete wall had nothing growing in it at all. There was one spot, where a slight contact ould have occurred. It was in the corner, where crap is totally overgrown. His dog would've had to fight through a bunch of brush to even have a chance to get exposed.
Has anyone else seen anything like this happen? I was using either round up thick brush / poison ivy or a spectracide basic herbacide.
BTW: I'd never spray anything like that near a dog to begin with, so I'm confused as to how this came about. He never took his dog to a vet.
thanks for any insights.

chrissygarden 08-24-2009 08:25 AM

How soon after after you sprayed did the poodle die??

Round up is supposely safe around animals... check the label and see what it saids.. Then you can show your neighbor.. or google it...

Your neighbor is looking for someone to blame and your it!

gma2rjc 08-24-2009 12:12 PM

The label on the weed & grass killer I use says it's safe around children and pets once it's dry.

Here are a couple things I found online:


http://www.ccc.govt.nz/Animals/DogPoisons.asp

Herbicides & Fungicides

Herbicides: In addition to toxicity from arsenic herbicides, dog toxicity is also occasionally observed from the phenol containing herbicides and from the chlorate salts. The low cost of both these materials makes them popular with local agencies for weed control. Only rarely are toxicities observed from 2,4,5-T and paraquat. No specific antidotes are available for these chemicals.

Clinical Signs: With few exceptions, clinical signs associated with herbicides are non-specific and include loss of appetite, vomiting and diarrhea. progressive muscular weakness and possible death.


http://www.dogs.info/common_poisons.html

Without witnessing exposure or ingestion of a poisonous substance, poisoning can be difficult to diagnose. Signs to watch for vary depending on the type of poison and type of exposure. Some poisons are inhaled and a few are absorbed, but the majority are ingested.

What to Watch For
Lethargy or sluggishness
Vomiting
Lack of appetite
Stumbling or staggering
Breathing difficulty
Seizure

I don't see anything about the symptoms your neighbor described.

Kap 08-24-2009 09:35 PM

The dog would have to ingest quite a bit of the herbicide depending on what it was. Diluted or over the counter RTU (ready to use) from spraying-highly unlikely. Unless the animal was allergic.

What exactly did you use?

My dogs have eaten grass I sprayed with roundup an hour after spraying with no ill effects. In product testing, they fed dogs roundup EVERY DAY for two years and observed no effects.

Termite 08-24-2009 10:58 PM

Sounds to me like the guy had a sick dog and didn't do anything about it. That's on him, not on you. :no:

ARI001 08-25-2009 09:23 AM

I hate to be the barer of bad news but if you spray pesticides or herbicides and an autopsy shows those chemicals are present in the dog you can be held responsible in court. Anytime you spray you need to put up signs informing the public you have done so. I would leave them up for 24 hrs if the chemical you use is safe once dry, longer if not.

downunder 08-25-2009 06:58 PM

FWIW-
As a certified landscape professional and a commercial pesticide appliceater (and a retired 25 yr law enforcement officer), I don't see that you have anything to worry about from what information you posted. There are just way too many questions. The only way that an animal could have come up with sores would be to have sprayed the chemical directly on it. Most poisons like this would cause systemic, mainly CNS, problems. In other words, SICK as already described.
Just my 2c worth.

ARI001 08-26-2009 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by downunder (Post 319271)
FWIW-
As a certified landscape professional and a commercial pesticide appliceater (and a retired 25 yr law enforcement officer), I don't see that you have anything to worry about from what information you posted. There are just way too many questions. The only way that an animal could have come up with sores would be to have sprayed the chemical directly on it. Most poisons like this would cause systemic, mainly CNS, problems. In other words, SICK as already described.
Just my 2c worth.

Regardless you are still required to post signs warning the general public that pesticides or other chemicals have been applied. Running a land scape business you should be well aware of this. Your background in law enforcement is irrelevant unless your primary job as a law enforcement officer was to enforce EPA regulations and state regulations with regards to chemical applications. This usually falls solely on the shoulders of EPA auditors and investigators. There are plenty of instances where the courts have warded damages due to neglect of the applicator to do this whether it was homeowner or professional does not matter, as you should be well aware. Ignorance of the law is not a justifiable excuse or reasonable defense.

On a side note; thank you for your service to our country as a law enforcement officer. To many people take for granted the services provided by the police until they need their help.

downunder 08-26-2009 07:48 PM

As I understand the original question, the OP was asking for insight as to how the neighbor can say that the dog died from the OP's actions. Since the dog's injuries were described as "having sores on her face and on her side," based on my background, training, and experience I really doubt that a light transfer of herbicide from wet foliage onto the dog's fur caused this. Besides that, the OP did not mention that the neighbor made a report with any agency or department and does not say that the dog was taken to a vet for medical treatment and/or to diagnose the source of the sores. I use commercial grade 41% barehanded and have never had any problem from minor contact with the concentrate and I am somewhat sensitive to chemicals as a whole. No comments please on using gloves- I know that, but.... I have even gotten poison ivy by transfer from petting the family cat coming out of the woods.


I may be digressing from the thread topic but,

Quote:

Regardless you are still required to post signs
How many homeowners actually do this, or even know to?

Quote:

Running a land scape business
Didn't say I run a landscape business. That's a contractor. I am an employee with extensive training including Master Gardener, Ga Certified Landscape Professional, Commercial Pesticide Applicator, and Erosion and Sediment Control.

Quote:

background in law enforcement is irrelevant
Want to guess how many times I've been in court? Well, not many actually because I made solid cases and had a reputation for knowing what I was doing. Notwithstanding making cases against folks who were in the judge's fraternity twenty years ago.:censored:

Quote:

Ignorance of the law is not a justifiable excuse
It can be if the prosecution has to prove "criminal intent."

Did I mention that I was a paramedic during my time in law enforcement and before I retired I was in forensics? The point is, the sores do not sound at all like what would be consistant with the contact. To quote a present co-worker, "That don't make no sense!"

Quote:

thank you for your service to our country as a law enforcement officer.
You're welcome.

ARI001 08-27-2009 09:45 AM

Downunder,

You do realize if you have an applicators license you can be held equally responsible with your employer for failure to follow both federal/ state regulations and laws regarding chemical applications. I am not going to get into the specifics of criminal and civil suits, however as I said if they have an autopsy done and it turns up the chemical used is in the dogs system or the legions or sores where caused by exposure the applicator can be held legally or financially responsible.
Most likely this would be a civil case. Either way whether the OP is found at fault or not they still may have to incur the costs of legal council to defend themselves regardless of whether it is a legal or civil proceeding. Posting signs and taking dated pictures of said signs would have given the OP a good degree of protection and proof that there was no or little negligence on their part (it would be difficult to prove or disprove the product was applied properly and at the proper percentage rates). I agree with you that it is most likely not the cause of the dogs death, however the OP may have set themselves up for problems that could have been otherwise avoided.

I do agree that many homeowners do not know or don't care to post signs, just as many homeowners don't know or don't care to get building permits. If they choose to not do so then they risk putting themselves in a position of liability. As I said there are many documented cases of judges/juries ruling for the perceived injured party due to neglect of the applicator to fully cover themselves at both the professional and non-professional level. They do not necessarily have to prove criminal intent to establish fault. If fault is established then the gates are open for a civil suit.

diy'er on LI 08-27-2009 01:23 PM

I work in a lab.... my suspicion is that the sores could have been caused by a chemical... but it would have been an acid or base. (pool chemicals are the first things that come to mind, with sores close to the nose (imagine him sniffing it) and the side of the body (rubbing against a container with residue on it). If the dog also injested some, that certainly would be lethal.

as an earlier poster said, most herbicides / pesticides cause neruological damage. Phenol, while quite nasty, is also rather volitile. It likely evaporated within a few minutes of application. I have no doubt that he would have gotten sick if he munched on a few leaves, but the odds are slim that the dog would eat weeds.


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