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Old 02-06-2009, 09:30 PM   #16
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Will water lines freeze if placed behind insulated stud wall in basement?


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I'd replace those shutoffs with ball valves before starting the framing.
Ron
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Why? Is there any benefit apart from being able to open/close the valve more easily?
I'm following up to this in case anyone finds this thread in a search somewhere down the road and wonders, like I did, why ball valves are recommended over shutoffs. The answer I found, in short, is that ball valves are less likely to leak.

http://www.rd.com/advice-and-know-ho...icle51360.html


Regarding kraft-faced insulation, I dug a little deeper and have discovered that the kraft paper serves as a vapor barrier but not an air barrier. Therefore, if I were to use it in my stud walls after having glued XPS to the foundation walls, I would be creating a double vapor barrier and bad things would happen.

Does anyone care to comment on the mockup I posted in comment #15? Any thoughts on if this setup will allow the water lines to receive enough heat during the coldest days?
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Old 02-06-2009, 09:50 PM   #17
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Will water lines freeze if placed behind insulated stud wall in basement?


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Originally Posted by jpsmith View Post
I'm following up to this in case anyone finds this thread in a search somewhere down the road and wonders, like I did, why ball valves are recommended over shutoffs. The answer I found, in short, is that ball valves are less likely to leak.

http://www.rd.com/advice-and-know-ho...icle51360.html


Regarding kraft-faced insulation, I dug a little deeper and have discovered that the kraft paper serves as a vapor barrier but not an air barrier. Therefore, if I were to use it in my stud walls after having glued XPS to the foundation walls, I would be creating a double vapor barrier and bad things would happen.

Does anyone care to comment on the mockup I posted in comment #15? Any thoughts on if this setup will allow the water lines to receive enough heat during the coldest days?
My son had a similar situation to yours! His ceiling was a dropped T-bar ceiling! As the air space above was dead air with no flow, his pipes froze!
He used sections of 'egg crate tile' to allow air flow! This resolved his problem!
Somehow, you should allow some ventilation into the ceiling space!
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Old 02-06-2009, 10:27 PM   #18
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Will water lines freeze if placed behind insulated stud wall in basement?


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Why? Is there any benefit apart from being able to open/close the valve more easily?
The washers need to be changed on these valves. The packing around the shaft leaks over time. The valves frreeze in the open position when they're not open and closed, especially if they're locked in the open position. They project down much further than a ball valve.
Ron
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Old 02-07-2009, 09:30 AM   #19
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Will water lines freeze if placed behind insulated stud wall in basement?


When I get around to finishing my basement, I'm going to use 2" foamboard (R-10) with furring strips over the top to create my exterior wall. Is this a possible scenario in your situation? This would give you increased R-value from the outside and less insulative properties from the inside (drywall only I presume). The heat from the basement will be more readily available from the inside to prevent freezing of these pipes that are "sandwiched" in the wall cavity.

As a side note, are you going to insulate the floor as well and create a subfloor? You may want to consider this if you're truely interested in insulating your basement. I've seen the use of 1" high density foamboard and 1/2" or 5/8" flooring used in this situation. Or there are the Dricore or OvrX (?) systems.

Best of luck.
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Old 02-07-2009, 02:14 PM   #20
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Will water lines freeze if placed behind insulated stud wall in basement?


Wildie, I think the egg crate ceiling tiles is a good idea. I could put them in the last row along that wall and if I paint the joists and subfloor above white, it won't look to bad I don't think. Plus, this area is just going to be a half-bath and a fruit cellar, so seeing through the ceiling tiles won't be the end of the world.

Thanks, Ron. I wish I'd have known that ball valves were better a month ago when I was putting in those lines...

Winchester, it's a good suggestion, but I'm not keen on using furring strips for my walls for a couple of reasons. First, my block foundation walls aren't perfectly straight; they have a bit of a bow to them. If I used furring strips, that bow would transfer to the finished wall. By framing in with 2x4 stud walls, I'm guaranteeing that my walls will be straight, plumb, and square. Also, I plan to fully wire the area with plenty of receptacles and light switches, and having stud walls makes this easy. Finally, the area I'm concerned with in this thread is going to be a half-bath. It already has a toilet drain set in the floor. I just have to add water sources for the commode and lav, and add a drain for the lav. I'd have no place to put these things if I used furring strips.

In case anyone's interested, attached is a PDF that shows the layout I'm going with. Unfortunately, the grid from visio didn't transfer to the PDF when I printed to file, so you can't see measurements in this drawing. It's 41' by 26' total.
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File Type: pdf basement.pdf (13.1 KB, 82 views)
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:21 PM   #21
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Will water lines freeze if placed behind insulated stud wall in basement?


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As a side note, are you going to insulate the floor as well and create a subfloor? You may want to consider this if you're truely interested in insulating your basement. I've seen the use of 1" high density foamboard and 1/2" or 5/8" flooring used in this situation. Or there are the Dricore or OvrX (?) systems.
Sorry, I didn't answer this question when I answered others... I'm seriously considering using Dricore with engineerd hardwood on top of it for the main living space, then for the half-bath and mud room, I plan to put tile on hardibacker. The Dricore is 7/8" thick, and the hardwood ranges from 1/4" to 3/4". This means where the tile meets the hardwood, the hardwood will be a bit elevated. Now I'm wondering if I could put 1/2" foam board underneath the hardibacker. Off to research...
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:19 PM   #22
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Will water lines freeze if placed behind insulated stud wall in basement?


What I decided to do was:

1. Move the water lines away from the wall about 6".

1a. While I was soldering, I replaced the shutoffs with ball valves and roughed in for the toilet & lav. It worked out well. Ironically, the ball valves leaked after one week. But I just had to tighten the nut behind the handle one each one. Apparently the factory didn't tighten them.

2. Install 4" of blue XPS up against the wall in the same manner I installed 1" of it along all the other walls. I used 4' x 8' x 2" boards, two layers thick. I taped and sealed the first layer before applying the second layer, which I also taped & sealed. This gives me an air-tight R20, with the water lines on the warm side.

3. Frame up the stud wall and install no fiberglass in this wall. This will allow heat to go through the drywall and keep the waterlines from freezing. But the heat won't escape beyond the blue board that's between the water lines and the foundation wall.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:23 PM   #23
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Will water lines freeze if placed behind insulated stud wall in basement?


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...then for the half-bath and mud room, I plan to put tile on hardibacker. The Dricore is 7/8" thick, and the hardwood ranges from 1/4" to 3/4". This means where the tile meets the hardwood, the hardwood will be a bit elevated. Now I'm wondering if I could put 1/2" foam board underneath the hardibacker. Off to research...
I should post back here with the results of my research. Yeah, that was a bad idea. You can't put backer board on top of a concrete slab. I'm going to be doing a 1.5" mud job in my bathroom and mud room, so with the 1/4" tiles it will bring that floor about level with the dricore/floating floor in the rest of the basement. I might need a transition piece, but it won't be dramatic.
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