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Old 11-03-2012, 02:29 PM   #31
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What size to make non-master rooms


Thanks for the info, I think I'm going to do a mock up on the floor to get an idea of the layout.

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Old 11-03-2012, 03:08 PM   #32
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What size to make non-master rooms


I used to get upset that I had to get the gubberment involed in my projects and I really resented it. Then I moved to FL and started looking for a house. The things supposedly knowledgeable people to to houses. OMG!!

You may get by most bank and insurance, home inspectors. They are useless, unknowledgeable, clueless boob's. Get a good inspector and you are toast.

If you are a competent construction person and the quality of your work a total improvement to the house, why would you not want it documented? That is worth money. JIm
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Old 11-03-2012, 03:52 PM   #33
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What size to make non-master rooms


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Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
Because a room is a certain size doesn't mean the wire is out of code. All the wiring has been updated and is now fully grounded. That's a far jump from room size to you're doing substandard work.
room size has nothing to do with electrical requirements. you will have to confirm with your local building department for your actual requirements, but typically the following life safety issues must be addressed when adding a bedroom:

1. all smoke detectors must be hard wired (battery only detectors not allowed).

2. all bedrooms (not just the new one) must have arc fault breakers

3. if any appliances are supplied by a fuel source (gas, oil, propane, etc.) you must have a carbon monoxide detector.

just because the panel has been upgraded and wiring is grounded does not mean it is compliant when adding an additional bedroom. please post the question in the Electrical forum if you do not believe this is true.

I never said your work was a "hack job", I said people that circumvent obtaining a permit will typically circumvent other things as well. People that circumvent doing things correctly usually do hack jobs. make sense?

The worst thing a poster can do on this forum is to say "they're not obtaining a building permit especially on something that requires a permit." adding a bedroom requires a permit because all of the additional safety requirements that kicks in. I wonder when reading this if the OP will follow any of my suggestions so why waste my time? I've given you the benefit of a doubt because I continue to provide you with information that will not only help you. but protect you as well.

A loss of life fire that occurs in a dwelling where work was performed that was non-compliant with the life safety code requirements can result in criminal as well as civil charges/penalties. The "I didn't know defense" does not hold up well in such cases. I do not want any of the three to occur if it can be prevented.

now to your OP, other posters have commented on your proposed room sizes, and have given you their opinions on the minimum for an effective bedroom. I have provided you with the code compliant requirements for a space to be classified as a bedroom as well as life safety requirements.

Hope this helps to explain things in a better light ....
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:22 AM   #34
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What size to make non-master rooms


This guy is convinced he knows more than any of us and is determined to do whatever he wants, codes and legality be damned. I suggest we close this thread and get on with our lives.
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:29 AM   #35
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What size to make non-master rooms


Regarding the original question of whether 9 x 10 (approx) is an acceptable size for a bedroom without a closet – in my opinion and experience - no.

We had a bedroom 8.5 x 10 with a closet. It had one 32” door and one 32” window. Barely fit one twin bed and a small dresser, the drawers on the bottom 18” were basically inaccessible.

As for the mockup on the floor, use something such as sheets hung up to simulate where the walls will be. This will give you an idea of what a potential buyer will see walking into a small room like that. The first thing a lot of men will do is spread out his arms to see if he can touch both walls at same time.

Use tape to mark off the area needed for the door and door swing necessary to get into the room (unless you are figuring that door opening into the hallway). You cannot block that access area. Where’s the window? That figures in with where the armoire/chest goes.

Outline the furniture on the floor, using something like 2x4x8s or concrete blocks to make real barriers to movement. A twin size bed will be about 3.25 x 6.25. That is for Hollywood style, no headboard or footboard. Bunk beds need even more room for the frame and ladder.

Since there is no closet, add a 2x4 armoire, with 18”swing out for the door.

Can you change clothes without hitting a wall or the armoire? Can you put sheets on the bed?

Then, look at the room as a potential buyer; do you see the two bedrooms as assets or a livable space for today’s renters?

Then, ask yourself some hard questions. Are houses that small actually selling and/or renting in the area? Are the small homes still occupied by families (or inheritors) that were there 50-60 years ago? Are the houses being remodeled to increase in size? Are the small houses being torn down or left to die? Are the houses being restored (as opposed to remodeled)? Are rental houses renting at a high enough amount to justify the price you expect a buyer to pay? Can you make your money back or will a buyer look at the small rooms as something to be remodeled again and low balling any offers?

Hopefully you can match your plans to the marketplace and be successful at your endeavor.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:07 AM   #36
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What size to make non-master rooms


Polly, you bring up some great points. As to the houses in this area, it's part of a 'challenged' area that doesn't allow you to do many things you can do in other area, so it's been bypassed for many years by developers.
Basically they force you to buy more expensive materials, so the developers just go to other areas. Houses only saw remodeling work done at the height of the housing bubble. Then stopped when the bubble burst.

As far as 'adding a room' there is no room added. The house had a separate dinning room and wash room, those are now gone. Nothing new was added, just moving inside, non-load walls. The house didn't start as a house, it was a shop, then a 2br, then a 2br. All done with moving walls around. I'm just moving the walls again. Looking at the comps, there is no real value to having a wash room or separate dinning room. Nobody on this block has either, everyone has a dinning area.

As far as the permit goes, when I asked about building a garage they informed me of the process, then when I told them the address, they informed me of the committee that must approve this and how much it would cost. I was also informed that a 2 car wouldn't be allowed. The cost of asking the committee was more that the comps showed the value of the garage. So there was no way to even come close to breaking even. And those comps where under a much better market.

Of all the houses around here, I've only seen one that was expanded, and that was in 2004, it's been vacant since about 2007. For about 50 years now, the city has been working on making this area better, yet you drive around and look, you see changes in surrounding areas and little or no changes here. They force you to over spend in an effort to make the area better, yet nobody does it because it's an automatic loss for them, investors go elsewhere. Given the crime rates, small houses, government built low income housing, high cost of special permits and required materials, I really can't blame them.

If I had known these things before I bought, I would never have bought, but that's in the past. I'm simply moving 1 wall back where it was and getting rid of the wash and dinning room to be used as a bedroom. Thankfully the layout make this straightforward and I only have to move non-load bearing walls.

At this point, I'm leaning toward a bit more size on the rooms as an investor might be renting to several roommates and smaller 'child' size rooms might kill that deal.
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:48 AM   #37
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What size to make non-master rooms


Have you checked with your local building department?

There is a minimum size for a room to be considered a bedroom plus a bedroom needs to have a egress window and a closet...
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:47 AM   #38
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What size to make non-master rooms


Closets may be optional, since many people like self-standing storgage that may be moved as furniture arrangements are changed.

In some cases, a decent sized room is worth much more when you go to sell than one good room in the same space will get you more money.

No one likes having to leave a room to change their mind and then going back into it.

Dick

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