Tiling - What Makes The Proper Flooring Sandwich? - Remodeling - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Remodeling

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-31-2010, 12:24 PM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 114
Rewards Points: 87
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


I see videos of people putting thin-set, then cement board anchored by screws or nails, then another layer of thin-set, then tile.

I'm tiling in a mudroom (1st room when entering the front of home). Is that sandwich approach accurate? I don't care what it takes as long as its the right way. Keep in mind the goal is to rip this out in 5-7 yrs.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Advertisement

luvdairish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 12:50 PM   #2
Renovations contractor
 
Bonzai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Squamish, BC - Canada
Posts: 324
Rewards Points: 250
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


What is on the floor at present ie. What needs to be removed first or is this a newly constructed area? Is the substrate plywood or concrete (which would be the case if this is on grade)?

The one critical piece that was not mentioned in your description is the crack prevention membrane. There are lots of solutions on the market ... A lot of contractors use the Schluter product (called Ditra mat) which is laid in a thin bed of thinset. There is a lot of info on the Schluter website about the correct install process including what to do with different substrates. Another solution is a roll on product called Red Guard which turns to rubber when dry. The reason for this layer is so that any small movements in the substrate are absorbed by this layer rather than being transferred to the tile / grout and causing cracks. It also acts as a waterproofing membrane so if you have a plywood substrate moisture does not seep through from the top and cause rot (puddles are common in a mud room after all with snow covered boots, etc). If the substrate is concrete (ie. On grade) you don't want moisture seeping upwards and compromising the thinset and grout.

Check also how level the existing surface is ... If it us uneven then you need to take care of this before laying tile. Also if it is plywood then make sure all boards are screwed down (not just nailed) as bouncy boards will cause cracks even with a crack prevention membrane. If it is concrete, repair anything more than a hairline crack. As with painting the quality of the finish is as much in the correct preparation as it is with the actual tile install.

I could go on but this should give you food for thought.

Advertisement

__________________
Home Renovations & Repairs
ADVENT HOME SOLUTIONS INC
Vancouver to Whistler & beyond

Last edited by Bonzai; 10-31-2010 at 12:52 PM.
Bonzai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 12:55 PM   #3
Renovations contractor
 
Bonzai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Squamish, BC - Canada
Posts: 324
Rewards Points: 250
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


If you have the budget, under floor heat is a very nice addition to a mudroom ... Warm toes in the winter when you take your shoes off ;-).
__________________
Home Renovations & Repairs
ADVENT HOME SOLUTIONS INC
Vancouver to Whistler & beyond
Bonzai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 01:00 PM   #4
Renovations contractor
 
Bonzai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Squamish, BC - Canada
Posts: 324
Rewards Points: 250
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


FYI- if done right the tiles will not come up easily and this should last for a very long time. If you have plans to rip this out anyway in a few years then perhaps you should just go with a cheaper solution such as vinyl as installing a tile floor correctly that is easily demo'd is contradictory.
__________________
Home Renovations & Repairs
ADVENT HOME SOLUTIONS INC
Vancouver to Whistler & beyond
Bonzai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 01:10 PM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 114
Rewards Points: 87
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonzai View Post
If you have the budget, under floor heat is a very nice addition to a mudroom ... Warm toes in the winter when you take your shoes off ;-).
Now that sounds nice!!! But not in budget. First house and very limited on funds.

Thanks for the reply. Nothing is down there now except for the plywood subfloor. I ripped out carpet that was covering vinyl over luan to get to the sub. It has a dip that I need to cut out and replace to make it level again. Support beams seem to be in good shape, so I'm not sure why it warped.

So, what am I facing to get something fairly inexpensive that will last for 5-7 yrs when I rip it back out?
luvdairish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 01:30 PM   #6
Renovations contractor
 
Bonzai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Squamish, BC - Canada
Posts: 324
Rewards Points: 250
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


I am intrigued as to why you plan to rip it out in 5-7 years? If it lasts 5-7 years it should last 20+ years or until you want to change the look ... there's no way to install it (other than badly) that makes it any easier to demo.

The "dip" is a bit of a concern ... it could be due to the home subsiding over time or other structural issues. How much of a dip are we talking in relation to the rest of the plywood subfloor? If it's not much (1/4" or so) and not over a large area then that can be filled with extra thinset when you put the 1/4" backerboard down although be careful to ensure there is no air pocket left. Alternatively you can use a self leveling compound (like a thin cement) to even it out (make sure you tape & mud any joins in the plywood first using thinset otherwise you'll end up with self leveling seeping below. I also tape & mud the join between the plywood and the drywall which will later be hidden by the baseboard). If you go with a self leveling compound then you could lay your crack prevention membrane directly over that and skip the backer board. If using Red Guard wait 3 days for the self leveler to cure enough (takes 28days to cure 100% just like concrete but can be walked on in about 12hrs) otherwise the Red Guard will bubble.

Something else to factor in is the transition to other rooms & front door in terms of height ... if you add too many layers you may need to skim a door or two & you may need to make a custom transition strip if the height difference is too great for a standard one. The good thing about Red Guard is it is thin and easy for DIYers to install.

Last edited by Bonzai; 10-31-2010 at 02:02 PM.
Bonzai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 06:58 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 114
Rewards Points: 87
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


Since it's my 1st house, I'm going to use it as an investment property. I secured a grant during the purchase which requires me to stay for 7 years. Right before that time is up, I'm going to do a gut/remodel and hopefully make a few pennies on the resale. Thats why I don't want something very permanent or expensive. Just a nice entry room would be nice. Also to mention, I'm putting a washer/dryer in this room so that is why I was thinking tile. Mainly just want something that will be protected from water. I was originally thinking pergo style floor, but was afraid if any substantial water....it would swell.

The dip seems to be just the results of the plywood itself. I'm not sure why it curved like that. The structure underneath is well intact. Only thing I could see is maybe the beams should be closer (16 OC) rather than 24 OC. The dip runs about 5-6ft long between the two beams. I measured it with a straight edge sitting on the beams, but forget what it was (duh ). I think it was much more than 1/4".

Thanks for your many responses
luvdairish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2010, 11:22 AM   #8
Renovations contractor
 
Bonzai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Squamish, BC - Canada
Posts: 324
Rewards Points: 250
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


Now while the bare plywood is exposed i would suggest taking it out altogether and add extra support ... 16" OC as you observed would be best ... 24" OC for tile is way too much. If you add an extra 2x8 between each existing to make it 12" OC or put in perpendicular struts every 16" that would work. At least then you don't have to do it as part of the later remodel. Also use a thicker plywood (in some older homes it may only be 1/2") to reduce any bounce.
What I often do where budget is a major factor is use an inexpensive tile for the main square footage and then a small mosaic tile to add some interest around the perimeter or lay the tile in something other than a checkerboard ... Gives the impression of greater perceived value.
__________________
Home Renovations & Repairs
ADVENT HOME SOLUTIONS INC
Vancouver to Whistler & beyond
Bonzai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 08:45 AM   #9
Ultimatetouch
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 49
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


As long as your subfloor is 3/4" thick, then you install durock and screws, verify that no spots in floors are lower then 3/8", then tile the floor. You can trwel thin set on the floor. I used to do that prior to installing durock. Since then my tile guy doesn't see it necessary so we don't do it. If there is a spot lower then 3/8 use floor leveler. Usually we have adjoining rooms with hardwood. So we use the proper thickness of durock so that we could flush the hardwood with the tile. This eliminates the threshold.
__________________________________________________ ___

Ultimatetouch
ultimatetouch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 11:15 AM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 9,519
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


Quote:
Originally Posted by luvdairish View Post
Since it's my 1st house, I'm going to use it as an investment property. I secured a grant during the purchase which requires me to stay for 7 years. Right before that time is up, I'm going to do a gut/remodel and hopefully make a few pennies on the resale. Thats why I don't want something very permanent or expensive. Just a nice entry room would be nice. Also to mention, I'm putting a washer/dryer in this room so that is why I was thinking tile. Mainly just want something that will be protected from water. I was originally thinking pergo style floor, but was afraid if any substantial water....it would swell.

The dip seems to be just the results of the plywood itself. I'm not sure why it curved like that. The structure underneath is well intact. Only thing I could see is maybe the beams should be closer (16 OC) rather than 24 OC. The dip runs about 5-6ft long between the two beams. I measured it with a straight edge sitting on the beams, but forget what it was (duh ). I think it was much more than 1/4".

Thanks for your many responses
The sandwich as you call it only works if the joists and subfloor are correct. Any tile you put on the current structure will fail.
What size joists are there and how far do the span (unsupported)?
Ron
Ron6519 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2010, 09:45 AM   #11
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 114
Rewards Points: 87
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron6519 View Post
The sandwich as you call it only works if the joists and subfloor are correct. Any tile you put on the current structure will fail.
What size joists are there and how far do the span (unsupported)?
Ron
Joists are 2x8 on a 12 ft span. I think the builders went minimum . In this area, I'm going to cut the subfloor back and sister some 2x4 to raise the floor. It looks to be sagging about 5/8 and spanning about 6ft dead center over 1 joist. I went under the house and didn't see anything obvious. I think they installed with crown down on this beam, but the 5/8's dip seems excessive for that.
luvdairish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2010, 04:56 PM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 9,519
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


Quote:
Originally Posted by luvdairish View Post
Joists are 2x8 on a 12 ft span. I think the builders went minimum . In this area, I'm going to cut the subfloor back and sister some 2x4 to raise the floor. It looks to be sagging about 5/8 and spanning about 6ft dead center over 1 joist. I went under the house and didn't see anything obvious. I think they installed with crown down on this beam, but the 5/8's dip seems excessive for that.
If you can, I would cut the span in half with a support beam. This will give you the support you need for the tile.
The sandwich I use is 2 layers of plywood equaling 1 1/2", glued and screwed. On top of that a cement board(either 1/2 or 1/4") thinsetted and screwed down.
Yes, it is higher then the surrounding floors.
Ron
Ron6519 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2010, 05:59 PM   #13
Member
 
jlhaslip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Canadian Rockies
Posts: 1,280
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


SPF, 24" centres, 12'0" span, 50 lb live load, 10 lb dead load requires 2 x 12 Joists

2 x 8's are good on 12" centres

http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/...Options#answer
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
Go ahead and apply for a variance, those guys at City Hall can use a good laugh.
jlhaslip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 11:46 AM   #14
Stuck in the 70's
 
Blondesense's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: south central Missouri
Posts: 2,162
Rewards Points: 1,018
Default

Tiling - What makes the proper flooring sandwich?


Quote:
Originally Posted by luvdairish View Post
I don't care what it takes as long as its the right way. Keep in mind the goal is to rip this out in 5-7 yrs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvdairish View Post
Right before that time is up, I'm going to do a gut/remodel and hopefully make a few pennies on the resale.


So you're going to spend the money now on tiling it right, then plan to tear it all out and replace it all again and still hope to make money on the deal? Tiling it right is not cheap.
Sorry, but I think you are a bit too optimistic here.

My opinion: Do it right. Do it once.

Advertisement

Blondesense is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
laminate flooring on top of tile newhomeowner808 Flooring 3 09-19-2009 08:34 PM
Installing engineered flooring in the Philippines Flt_Simulation Flooring 15 07-21-2009 09:00 PM
Basement flooring options.. Tommy2 Flooring 9 02-14-2009 08:06 PM
no glue, no nails wood flooring - little help? reds_21 Flooring 2 02-13-2009 12:32 PM
Tiling problems Okie404 Flooring 8 01-26-2009 03:47 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts