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Old 10-21-2009, 11:19 PM   #1
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Renovating in-laws' kitchen


Hello,

I'm about to embark on a kitchen reno for my mother in law. I would appreciate some expert advice on the proposed layout. The home was built in the early 60's. Currently, the space is not very functional, and has no room for a built-in dishwasher. There is a "breakfast nook" that is about to be converted into a new home for the refrigerator.

Without further ado, please see attached photos. Ignore the cabinet in the middle of the fridge, please. Ikea software is very buggy.

The stove will not be relocated (for many reasons -- moving the vent for the hood fan, moving electrical, and having to cut new holes in the exterior of the home). The sink will not be relocated (it should rightfully belong under the window). The fridge is being relocated (currently sits where the dishwasher is planned to go).
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Renovating in-laws' kitchen-heathers-house-light-wood.jpg   Renovating in-laws' kitchen-heathers-house-dark-wood2.jpg   Renovating in-laws' kitchen-heathers-house-medium-brown-4.jpg   Renovating in-laws' kitchen-kitchen-20layout.jpg  

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Last edited by Fingers; 10-21-2009 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 10-22-2009, 01:55 AM   #2
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Renovating in-laws' kitchen


I would reconsider moving the stove. Put dishwasher to the right of the sink. Remove the tall cabinet next to the dishwasher. Put the stove on the wall where the proposed dw is at.

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Old 10-22-2009, 06:51 AM   #3
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Renovating in-laws' kitchen


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I would reconsider moving the stove. Put dishwasher to the right of the sink. Remove the tall cabinet next to the dishwasher. Put the stove on the wall where the proposed dw is at.
This will involve many, many changes. What is the reasoning for this?
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Old 10-22-2009, 07:26 AM   #4
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Renovating in-laws' kitchen


Dishwasher is fed from the sink supply line and drains into the sinks drain. The distance you are proposing to locate the dishwasher from the sink is FAR. You will have multiple plumbing issues (not to mention possible codes in your area) that will come in to play to do this.
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Old 10-22-2009, 08:36 AM   #5
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Renovating in-laws' kitchen


Assuming a mechanical air gap (in sink) is not required. Does anyone know what code would be violated if the DW was discharged to a standpipe in the basement as long as you could leave a loop in the DW discharge hose higher than the water level of the DW and still reach the standpipe. Certainly the standpipe is high enough off the basement floor. Does the stand pipe need to be higher than the water level in the DW?

The hot water line to the DW should not pose any problem.
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Old 10-22-2009, 08:49 AM   #6
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Renovating in-laws' kitchen


Ooh, very good point. The dishwasher is closer to the vent stack than the sink is, and the drain would be directly underneath the sink. How else can I go about this? What about roughing in a wall-drain like the ones that are used for washing machines?

Last edited by Fingers; 10-22-2009 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 10-22-2009, 08:59 AM   #7
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Renovating in-laws' kitchen


You could put it in the stud bay where the DW but be sure it meets code for your area.
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Old 10-22-2009, 12:32 PM   #8
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Renovating in-laws' kitchen


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This will involve many, many changes. What is the reasoning for this?
Function and convenience, mostly, The proposed location of the stove will not provide a good work station without counter top on both sides.(not sure if I would like the in-laws cussing me out every time they cooked) Check the code in your area and see if a recirculating fan would work, if the stove is electric rather than gas it's a simple move. If it's gas I would move it anyway and duct it outside. Cutting a new hole in the outside is not that big of chore. I am also not a big fan of the refer location. A side by side refer will not work well, not enough room to open the doors fully. What can I say, the OP asked for criticism.
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Old 10-22-2009, 01:00 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Mop in Hand View Post
Function and convenience, mostly, The proposed location of the stove will not provide a good work station without counter top on both sides.(not sure if I would like the in-laws cussing me out every time they cooked) Check the code in your area and see if a recirculating fan would work, if the stove is electric rather than gas it's a simple move. If it's gas I would move it anyway and duct it outside. Cutting a new hole in the outside is not that big of chore. I am also not a big fan of the refer location. A side by side refer will not work well, not enough room to open the doors fully. What can I say, the OP asked for criticism.
All excellent points. While very valid, its outside of what I want to undertake for this project. I agree a stovetop should have counters on either side. That said, there are other considerations -- the hardwood flooring does not continue under the cabinets, and I dont want to replace it. I won't be able to find matching vinyl siding, so I wont be able to patch the hole from moving the vent. Charcoal filtered vents, although compliant with code, are not suitable as she wants an OTR microwave. The wiring to the hood fan already exists, so this is one less circuit I have to run and one less wall I have to break open. The easiest part of moving the stove will be moving the 220 outlet!

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate and agree with everything you're saying!

Here is the current layout.
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:23 PM   #10
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Renovating in-laws' kitchen


Most, if not all OTR mircowaves have adjustable fans that convert to recircluting. Depending on the size of the OTR, you may have to run a new circut anyway. My best guess is the fan over the present stove runs off the lighting circut.
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:50 PM   #11
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There's still nothing i can do about the hardwood floor not continuing under the cabinets. There's no way to match it as it is 20 years old.
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:46 PM   #12
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Renovating in-laws' kitchen


Fingers,

I am not following your reasoning regarding the floor. The range will cover the floor nearly as well as a cabinet and should not pose a problem if that is what you are concerned about. Most of the OTR Microwaves have carbon filters that allow you to by pass the outside vent. I prefer venting to the outside but sometimes it is not practical.

As Mop in Hand says above, you may need to run a 20A circuit for the OTR but also the existing hole for the vent may not match up anyway. So be prepared to do a little work on the outside of the house. There are ways to deal with moving or removing the existing vent even if you can not match the siding.

A couple of suggestions - put a larger (or double) pantry cabinet next to the fridge and use a 24" deep cabinet above the fridge. Step the cabinet above the fridge out 6"-8" The counter next to the fridge will not make a good work spacewill and will only collect crap and you will occasionally find things that should be refrigerated sitting there going bad. Trust me I know this from experience.

It looks like you are going all the way to the ceiling with the new cabinets which is a great way to do it since that is all wasted space anyway. Just be sure not to start them tight up against the ceiling. Leave enough room to get them level side to side and front to back.

Before you start installing the cabinets clean the walls and ceiling properly (tsp, hot water and rinse well) to prep for painting. I would also apply a good primer, ceiling paint and first coat of wall paint. This saves damage to the cabinets and cuts the clean/paint time significantly. You will probably save an entire day.

Rege
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Old 10-24-2009, 04:19 PM   #13
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Renovating in-laws' kitchen


Fingers,
Before you do any more design work I would recommend you do some research on the "work triangle". This is a basic kitchen design principle which shows the relationship between the layout of the kitchen and it's functionality with regards to real world applications.

The dishwasher should be positioned next to the sink. This will keep the plumbing simple and is a matter of common sense as far as functionality goes. Would you want to walk dirty and or wet dishes from the sink across the kitchen to the dishwasher? It is neither convenient, economical, or safe to do so.
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Old 10-24-2009, 04:31 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by RegeSullivan View Post
Fingers,

I am not following your reasoning regarding the floor. The range will cover the floor nearly as well as a cabinet and should not pose a problem if that is what you are concerned about. Most of the OTR Microwaves have carbon filters that allow you to by pass the outside vent. I prefer venting to the outside but sometimes it is not practical.
There's no way that the range will cover a huge gap in the floor (i have hardwood in my current house and the flooring is very much visible around the range), but I will nonetheless try when I order the cabinets (I will be able to move them around and see what works best)

Thanks!
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Old 10-24-2009, 04:35 PM   #15
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Fingers,
Before you do any more design work I would recommend you do some research on the "work triangle". This is a basic kitchen design principle which shows the relationship between the layout of the kitchen and it's functionality with regards to real world applications.

The dishwasher should be positioned next to the sink. This will keep the plumbing simple and is a matter of common sense as far as functionality goes. Would you want to walk dirty and or wet dishes from the sink across the kitchen to the dishwasher? It is neither convenient, economical, or safe to do so.
Maybe its hard to grasp the scale of the kitchen, but it's a small space. With arms outstretched standing in the middle of the kitchen, I can touch both the fridge and the range.

If you look at this photo: http://www.diychatroom.com/attachmen...n-img00026.jpg imagine the dishwasher being where the fridge is now. With the DW open, you wouldn't even have to budge to put the dishes into it if you were standing in front of the sink.

With the flooring gaps, and the current cutout for the range hood, I do not want to move the range anywhere.

Also I just thought of something -- there would be no way to vent it outside if I moved the range away from the exterior wall. I dont have the ceiling height to make a bulkhead to box in the vent, and the upper cabinets are 39". I dont want to sacrifice cabinet height for this.

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Last edited by Fingers; 10-24-2009 at 04:40 PM.
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