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Old 01-15-2009, 12:35 PM   #1
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Mastic/thinset bathtub/shower surround?


This is my first time posting here, but I've been a lurker and appreciate the tips you folks have posted.

My background: old retired fart, semi-handy and willing to learn. I''ve tiled large countertops and floors over CBU. The results looked professional and held up, but I'm in a tizzy over the thinset/mastic choice for the surround.

My project: I've gutted a small bathroom and intend to replace everything. So far, the new Vikrell tub is in, Georgia Pacific Densguard is used for surround replacing previous drywall installation...

I intend to do the floor (12 x 12 ceramic from HD) over Densguard using Versabond thinset but I lean toward Tec Invision mastic from Lowes for tiling (matching 8 x 12 ceramic from Home Depot) the surround.

I favor mastic because as a DIYer it seems easier to adjust tile and I'd worry less about slippage down the wall if I don't mix the thinset perfectly. I called tech support for Tec Invision, explained the situation and was told to proceed with their product. Even so, arguments such as these have me worried.

I'm at the point that I'll cover seams and corners with fiberglass tape embedded with what I use to set the tile. I'll cover screwheads & seams with some Redguard. I don't want to mess up and use mastic, then be told to switch to Versabond thinset for the installation.

Soooo, my questions are:

- Am I on the verge of disaster if I proceed with Tec Invision mastic?

- Do the procedures I've outlined sound feasible?

Any advice is appreciated and I thank you in advance.

Mike

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Old 01-15-2009, 12:59 PM   #2
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Mastic/thinset bathtub/shower surround?


You cannot use any type of premixed thinset (mastic, etc) in a wet location.

Some advice, when you trowel the thinset on the wall, do it in a horizontal pattern as opposed to vertical. Horizontal lines will help hold the tile to the wall a bit better. Think of it as tile hanging from a rope (horizontal) or sliding down a rope (vertical).

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Old 01-15-2009, 04:10 PM   #3
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Mastic/thinset bathtub/shower surround?


Everything i have ever read says not to use mastic in wet locations. Not sure if it is necessary or not but i have also read to use a water proofer like red guard over the whole encloser. Also make sure you use alkali resistant screws and tape, not regular fiberglass drywall tape.
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Old 01-15-2009, 04:25 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by angus242 View Post
You cannot use any type of premixed thinset (mastic, etc) in a wet location.

Some advice, when you trowel the thinset on the wall, do it in a horizontal pattern as opposed to vertical. Horizontal lines will help hold the tile to the wall a bit better. Think of it as tile hanging from a rope (horizontal) or sliding down a rope (vertical).
I'm looking at a bucket of Mapei Type 1. It only states it should not be used in areas that are subjected to constant immersion. This kind of leads me to believe that Mapei endorses it for shower or tube wall use. I know older mastics had problems with re-emulsification(word?) in wet areas, but haven't they gotten much better with the new adhesives?
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Old 01-15-2009, 04:49 PM   #5
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Mastic/thinset bathtub/shower surround?


I cannot stress this enough, mastic of any type should not be used in a wet location.

This statement is from the technical director of the Tile Council of North America:
"The tile industry neither condones or recommends mastic or greenboard in wet areas. In the US we have installation standards of which the manufacturing community is one of 4 segments represented. The Tile Council of America publishes (but does not set) the standards (www.tileusa.com)."

Type1 mastic says is can be used in a wet location but that's only because it meets certain minimal requirements under some standard. That's not to say it's OK for all uses. From what I'm told, it's more like setting tile in a commercial bathroom scenario where the longevity isn't necessarily an issue. Most commercial buildings get remodeled more often than a residential situation.

If my advice isn't enough, use the search feature on this site. Look for replies from guys that have decades of experience like Bud Cline and JazMan. Do a search on John Bridge's website about it. Or, just use mastic that many tile professionals have said not to use, and WHEN it fails, come back here and post your story. I promise not to say I told you so.
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Last edited by angus242; 01-15-2009 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:30 PM   #6
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Mastic/thinset bathtub/shower surround?


I went to the site and something caught my eye:

Does the TCNA approve certain methods?

The TCNA does not approve nor disapprove methods. As you know, the Tile Council of North America publishes the TCA Handbook for Ceramic Tile Installation. However, as the Handbook secretariat we do not create these details - rather, they are the work of the Handbook Committee, a representative group of experts in the ceramic tile industry. This group meets to share knowledge, problem, solutions, and research. When there are conflicting opinions, the Handbook may not have a solution as it reflects consensus views and generally accepted procedures. Also, the Handbook does not contain proprietary methods. As the secretariat, we record and publish the consensus of these experts.
There are many proprietary methods on the market that are well regarded and backed by their manufacturers. In many cases, proprietary methods and products have been developed to address special conditions or to utilize new technology. These methods will not be in the TCA Handbook but may work quite well when used in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.

To find out if any method is appropriate for certain conditions and to find out warranty and application information, you will want to speak with the manufacturer.



Since the Manufacturer, "Mapei", endorses it product for wet areas, isn't the TCNA endorsing this installation method?
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:52 PM   #7
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Since the Manufacturer, "Mapei", endorses it product for wet areas, isn't the TCNA endorsing this installation method?
No. They don't endorse or condone.
I'm saying tiling professionals are the ones condoning.

Use what you want. Recommend what you want. I'm telling you as a tiling professional, I say don't use it as do some of the most experienced tiling professionals I know.
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Old 01-15-2009, 06:03 PM   #8
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No. They don't endorse or condone.
I'm saying tiling professionals are the ones condoning.

Use what you want. Recommend what you want. I'm telling you as a tiling professional, I say don't use it as do some of the most experienced tiling professionals I know.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just trying to find out the basis on why it's not recommended. I respect what professionals recommend and the advice they give, but I like a little more than "I read somewhere..."
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Old 01-15-2009, 06:43 PM   #9
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http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=39491

http://forum.doityourself.com/archiv.../t-191460.html

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=46430

http://www.h o u serepairtalk.com/f13/premixed-adhesive-grout-633/ (remove gaps from link, wouldn't appear otherwise)

http://www.floorstransformed.com/cer...iii-15697.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...075825250.html
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Old 01-15-2009, 07:27 PM   #10
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Ok. I give. I solemnly swear to only use mastic where not subjected to any moisture.
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Old 01-15-2009, 07:43 PM   #11
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YEAY!!!!

Honestly, I see no reason to ever use it. While it may be convenient because there's no mixing, the cost alone is enough to steer clear. Mixing thinset is not hard. I just don't trust something that's supposed to adhere tiles but in reality, only does it under certain circumstances.
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Old 01-16-2009, 04:04 PM   #12
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Well thanks guys, and you've convinced me. I was hoping that I'd hear "Tec Invision will work" but I'm going to use Versabond (blanco, for light colored grout ) and learn to mix the stuff. I'll probably mix half a bag to start and see how it goes.

I appreciate the tips about horizontal troweling and alkali resistant fiberglass tape. I'll Redguard over the screws too.

The Tec Invision goes back to Lowe's tomorrow.
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Old 01-17-2009, 01:49 AM   #13
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I'll probably mix half a bag to start and see how it goes.
Start with much less. Remember, you can always make more but once a large batch starts to cure, it's done.

I'll Redguard over the screws too.
Don't forget to do the seams too. 2 coats to be safe. Follow the directions!

The Tec Invision goes back to Lowe's tomorrow.
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Old 01-17-2009, 10:41 AM   #14
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Thanks again, Angus. I will do the half a bag trick and double the RedGuard first. I have to do the seams first so I'll get a little practice mixing the thinset and that's a plus.
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Old 01-17-2009, 10:46 AM   #15
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Thanks again, Angus. I will do the half a bag trick and double the RedGuard first. I have to do the seams first so I'll get a little practice mixing the thinset and that's a plus.
Be careful. I'm saying to use much less than a 1/2 bag for your first batch. A 1/2 bag is A LOT of thinset. Use less!

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