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Old 12-14-2013, 12:17 PM   #1
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


Hijacking a dead thread just a bit but I have a similar question.

I am finishing the interior of my attached (1965-built) 2-car garage which is on a slab and has concrete block walls with brick on the exterior. The garage faces south in direct sun and I've never seen any moisture associated with the floor or walls. I already painted the interior of the block walls (4 yrs ago when I moved in) with white masonry (drylok-type) paint. I plan to do 2x4s with unfaced batt insulation and OSB painted walls.

Do I still need 3/4" rigid foam behind the studs with my sealed wall? Does the rest of this sound okay?

Thanks!

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Old 12-14-2013, 01:09 PM   #2
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


If it's an attached garage you need 5/8 fire code sheet that's sealed all the way to the roof.
May want to check with your local building inspector, mine wants drywall on all the walls to meet fire codes.

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Old 12-14-2013, 01:12 PM   #3
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


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Originally Posted by mystic_cobra View Post
Do I still need 3/4" rigid foam behind the studs with my sealed wall? Does the rest of this sound okay?
From a code perspective (IRC; local may differ), there is nothing requiring you to protect the studs from the masonry/concrete wall, as long as you're not fastening the wood to the wall, as in the case of furring strips. And even then, it's only required for below-ground applications. Now...that's minimum code. Providing a thermal break between the concrete wall and the studs is a good idea. If you leave a gap between the wall and the stud, you kills two birds with one stone--no direct-contact heat or moisture exchange. The drylock should make the latter a non-issue, anyway.
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Old 12-14-2013, 01:38 PM   #4
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


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If it's an attached garage you need 5/8 fire code sheet that's sealed all the way to the roof.
May want to check with your local building inspector, mine wants drywall on all the walls to meet fire codes.
There is concrete block wall separating the garage from the house. You think I'd still need sheet rock on it? They said it wasn't necessary to put sheet rock in my other attic when I insulated the side wall from upstairs living space but I can see where it might be necessary above a garage. I guess there's only one way to find out.
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Old 12-14-2013, 04:10 PM   #5
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


In the OP's location, the concrete block wall is far superior in fire resistance compared to to a wood framed wall according to codes and Underwriters Laboratories. The problem comes where the block stops and the wood is used. You just then need to use wood stop to protect the rest of the wood(???) before it burns, leaving the concrete standing.

Unfortunately, the model codes are written to be simplistic/prescriptive and not always realistic. Writing the codes is just like a back-alley battle where everyone has their own "turf"/interest/ expertise.

Dick
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Old 12-15-2013, 04:50 AM   #6
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


Made this its own thread.
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Old 12-15-2013, 02:30 PM   #7
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


There should be no problem with fire code due to the garage already has its fire barrier since it past inspection when it was originally built. The insulation isn't even required. If you were happy with the way the room retained its temperature than you can skip the insulation as well. Adding the insulation will be beneficial but it will also be an added expense. As far as the block is concerned you should never allow regular lumber to contact any concrete material in general unless the lumber is treated, in which case is made to come in contact with concrete. another option would be to place building paper between block and new lumber to act as a barrier for any moisture that may occur. Good Luck!
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Old 12-15-2013, 02:39 PM   #8
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


Quote:
Originally Posted by mystic_cobra View Post
Hijacking a dead thread just a bit but I have a similar question.

I am finishing the interior of my attached (1965-built) 2-car garage which is on a slab and has concrete block walls with brick on the exterior. The garage faces south in direct sun and I've never seen any moisture associated with the floor or walls. I already painted the interior of the block walls (4 yrs ago when I moved in) with white masonry (drylok-type) paint. I plan to do 2x4s with unfaced batt insulation and OSB painted walls.

Do I still need 3/4" rigid foam behind the studs with my sealed wall? Does the rest of this sound okay?

Thanks!
No-- you do not "need" foam board. Big question is -- will you be heating it? If not, the OSB will absorb any vehicle moisture and rot; http://bct.eco.umass.edu/publication...d-and-plywood/

You should not use a vapor retarder/barrier on the walls due to the Drylock applied. It has to dry inward only now. http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...commendations/

Do not use paper-faced drywall either, IMHO. The paper could easily mold on the backside of drywall without regular heat source in humid weather.

The frame wall may require fire-blocking per code, check locally.

Gary
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Last edited by Gary in WA; 12-15-2013 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 12-15-2013, 02:50 PM   #9
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


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Originally Posted by concretemasonry View Post
In the OP's location, the concrete block wall is far superior in fire resistance compared to to a wood framed wall according to codes and Underwriters Laboratories. The problem comes where the block stops and the wood is used. You just then need to use wood stop to protect the rest of the wood(???) before it burns, leaving the concrete standing.

Unfortunately, the model codes are written to be simplistic/prescriptive and not always realistic. Writing the codes is just like a back-alley battle where everyone has their own "turf"/interest/ expertise.

Dick
There some fire issues that I am going to resolve above the block wall in the attic above the garage. There are some unsealed areas around the chimney that I need to fill and seal somehow. I will post pictures when I get to this part because I'm not sure it it needs spray foam or sheetrock or framing or what.

I will be adding extra insulation (1.5" foam between the roof truss chords-foil taped) between the garage attic and the house 2nd floor. I did this in my other attic space on the other end of the house.

When you say "wood stop" are you talking about some specific product or fire blocking?
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Old 12-15-2013, 03:29 PM   #10
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


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There should be no problem with fire code due to the garage already has its fire barrier since it past inspection when it was originally built. The insulation isn't even required. If you were happy with the way the room retained its temperature than you can skip the insulation as well. Adding the insulation will be beneficial but it will also be an added expense. As far as the block is concerned you should never allow regular lumber to contact any concrete material in general unless the lumber is treated, in which case is made to come in contact with concrete. another option would be to place building paper between block and new lumber to act as a barrier for any moisture that may occur. Good Luck!
I am planning to add heat and AC at some point in the future. When depends on how the temp is in the garage once the insulated walls are done. It is a working garage/shop. I spend probably 20 hrs in there a week working on various car projects.
Thinking back now, I don't think I had really decided for sure if I was going to insulate the common block wall between the house and the garage. Can I use less? I guess the extra insulation there will help isolate noise from the house, too.

There won't really be much vehicle moisture inside the garage. None of our daily driven cars park inside. It is just for storing the cars I'm working on.
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Old 01-03-2014, 02:33 PM   #11
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


If I am going to leave an air gap between the wood studs and the concrete block wall, how much should I leave?

This is what the walls look like now. Painted with wood trim. Also, should I pull off all that wood trim or just leave it up there?

Would it make sense to put up 1/2" rigid foam behind the studs to add more insulation? I do plan to put R13 rolls in between the studs.

I'm also planning to replace the exterior man door and the two garage doors. Should I have the garage doors installed before I do the framing or does it matter?






Last edited by mystic_cobra; 01-03-2014 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 01-06-2014, 05:27 PM   #12
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


So, it's been quiet on here so I'm moving forward (but still looking for advice!)...I'm thinking of leaving a half inch gap behind the framing-just enough to butt 1/2" foam up to the bottom of that trim in the top corner. I pulled off the corner bead outside of that 1x3 trim.
Sound good?
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Old 01-07-2014, 06:59 AM   #13
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


Jim,

Pull the trim on the windows and doors and get the areas between the block and the wood sealed up really well.

Leave the garage wood trim intact.

I would put minimum of 1" foam on the wall if it where my home. You are going to loose some wall depth regardless but an extra 1" across the entire width won't kill you and will make the space more comfortable.

Frame your wall and fill with an unfaced and HD batt. Build your extension jambs (wood or drywall) around the doors and garage doors.

You should be able to do the garage doors whenever. Let me know if you need help sourcing those.

I also get recycled 1" foam (XPS) from a supplier by the truck load. Winds up being much cheaper than new from HD or Lowes.
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Old 01-07-2014, 09:54 AM   #14
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Framing a wood studded wall against a concrete block wall in VA


Interestingly, HD lists 4 products at my local store in the range of $10 per 4x8 sheet. After those four the next one is $20 per sheet. The least expensive one they carry is the 1" and R3.9. The others are 3.2+. I guess at that price, the 1" makes the most sense.

Looks like I'll need about 20 sheets of the foam.

I am still shopping around for garage doors.

I've already pulled the trim around the two windows. The gaps around the windows with have NO insulation at all.

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