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Old 01-28-2012, 06:16 PM   #31
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


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Originally Posted by dberladyn View Post
Why not glue the foam with Pl300 or what ever construction adhesive is foam friendly and then laminate the drywall directly to the foam? Simply, fast, solid and it works well. That's how I did my walls. You don't need to screw anything, just glue. By the way, for the drywall to the foam you can use drywall compound to laminate the board to the foam, just make sure you use taping mud.
Unless they want to put wiring or plumbing in the wall. hope your walls stay dry.

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Old 01-28-2012, 07:28 PM   #32
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


And why wouldn't they stay dry? The house is 42 years old, the concrete is sealed on the exterior, any excessive moisture coming through the concrete (if it was there ) will trickle down to the floor where it would be sealed under the subfloor. I feel like saying a big **** *** to your post. I don't understand why you'd post with that attitude.

Plumbing? I actually have some in that wall, as well as a little electrical. It's not hard if you use what's between your ears.
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Old 01-28-2012, 08:02 PM   #33
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


Any basement wall could start leaking or having moisture issues at anytime. And he is saying that you cant run plumbing or electrical within a wall that consists of only xps and drywall because there would be no room unless you cut into the concrete. I have seen shallow electrical boxes, but don't know if they would fit.

I don't think he was trying to be a jerk, but just giving some info which could be useful.
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Old 01-28-2012, 08:37 PM   #34
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


I used 2.5" Styrofoam and I would have went even thicker but I was constraining my spending. At 2.5" plus a .25" gap (your going to have it) that's plenty of room for a box, the wires... just keep them against the concrete. Same with pipes. Keep nothing within 1.5" of the drywall and you should all be good. Naturally if you have too many conduits you're going to have to build a wall to contain them.

2.5" styrofoam is R12. A guy could even go thicker which would allow for deeper boxes.

As for moisture... if you have excessive moisture problems you're going to have a repair regardless.
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Old 01-28-2012, 08:49 PM   #35
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


I hope you mean xps and not styrofoam. Styrofoam does close to nothing.
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Old 01-28-2012, 08:56 PM   #36
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


Ok... Extruded Polystyrene... XPS.. my bad.

There's nothing wrong with going either way, but my way was cheaper and it maximized the floor footprint of the room. You just have to be a little more thoughtful in sealing things up to maintain the moisture barrier.

Dan
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:34 PM   #37
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dberladyn View Post
Why not glue the foam with Pl300 or what ever construction adhesive is foam friendly and then laminate the drywall directly to the foam? Simply, fast, solid and it works well. That's how I did my walls. You don't need to screw anything, just glue. By the way, for the drywall to the foam you can use drywall compound to laminate the board to the foam, just make sure you use taping mud.
The foamboard has to be mechanically attached per minimum code, or held in place by a framed wall in front. Without adhesive for an air barrier the basement air would condense on the concrete. The drywall has to be mechanically attached as well, adhesive will reduce the fasteners needed by +-50% as per code and drywall manufacturer group, this is in case of fire. The composition of drywall in a fire requires support, otherwise with adhesive alone it would fail much sooner.
http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...002_par010.htm

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...016_par003.htm

This is the reason Dow uses wood strips to hold the edges of their f.b. and attach drywall to-- 3/4" minimum wood thickness.

Gary
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:43 PM   #38
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


Codes vary from region to region.

My concrete is 42 years old, it was poured in forms built of shiplap. It's very uneven, then you have the globs of adhesive... I have an average of 1/4" gap between the concrete and foam. I'm not concerned with what I have done in regards to moisture, I'd be very surprised to have a problem here.

As for the fire rating, that's interesting point that I didn't think of but honestly I couldn't care too much about that. I've used 5/8's drywall for the strength and sound qualities. It has an hours fire-rating... mind you the foam will melt with temps but then I'm not building a completely fireproof house... or it wouldn't be built out of wood studs.

Once more, codes vary from region to region. On 100 million dollar projects we laminate board all the time directly to concrete (interior walls), no nails, no screws.

Last edited by dberladyn; 01-28-2012 at 11:46 PM.
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Old 01-29-2012, 05:55 PM   #39
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


"Once more, codes vary from region to region. On 100 million dollar projects we laminate board all the time directly to concrete (interior walls), no nails, no screws." ----

that's fine, apples to oranges, not apples to apples. Foam board requires covering (in this application)--- concrete walls don't usually ignite and burn.....requiring a thermal/ignition barrier.

I was referring to drywall over foam board on below-grade concrete walls. Local codes do vary in the jurisdiction accepting all or parts of them (or adding to). Which State are you in? 50 States included here follow the IRC; http://www.iccsafe.org/gr/pages/adoptions.aspx

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Old 01-29-2012, 07:56 PM   #40
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


I'm not in a State. I am in Canada.

This must be turning into a pride thing, either for you.. or for me. There's not much point in continuing this. I am more than satisfied that I'll never see a problem with my wall. I would do it all over again the same way in a heart beat.

Codes and everything else.... save it for someone else.
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Old 01-29-2012, 09:30 PM   #41
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


Sorry if I upset you over this. I was merely showing the reason not to just glue the two materials to the concrete. This happens in a forum, the end result being the best way to do something, hopefully, also the safest way.

I was curious as to your location because of the Codes available there. Codes are like getting a "D" on a school test, passing- but barely. The U.S. codes are changing each year with more scientific ways and experience to help guide the changes.

In Canada, if you could just glue the drywall, your codes would not stipulate "strapping" required on the foamboard.

Interior Board-Type Insulation Option for a Class 'A' Basement
Where a finished, Class A basement is desirable in a given housing market, another approach to interior insulation and finish is depicted in Figure 2.11. This approach to a fully insulated and finished basement avoids the use of vapour permeable insulation, and also isolates integral framing members from direct contact with wet, curing concrete.
Control Function
Option
Description
Structure
CIP or CMU
Cast-in-place concrete or concrete masonry units
Insulation Placement
INT
Interior insulation (board type, integral strapping)
Insulation Coverage
F
Full coverage of foundation walls
Construction Moisture
W or D
Wet or dry construction
Drainage
EDR
Explicit drainage provided by membrane
Waterproofing
NWP
None
Dampproofing
FDP
Full below-ground wall exterior coverage provided by insulation
Air Leakage & Soil Gas Control
HAB
Hybrid system of structure, caulking, membranes
Moisture Control
NMC
None, moisture control provided by insulation
Table 2.11 Description of interior board-type insulation option.
Figure 2.11 Typical configuration of interior board-type insulation option.From: http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/eng/ibp/ir...199/part2.html The bold in the chart was mine.


Dow of Canada directs one to attach the strapping to the concrete/block wall with fasteners, as pictured: http://building.dow.com/na/en/applic...onsintwall.htm

I wasn't talking about your wall, just gave the answer to your question in post #30:
"Why not glue the foam with Pl300 or what ever construction adhesive is foam friendly and then laminate the drywall directly to the foam? Simply, fast, solid and it works well."

Gary
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:11 PM   #42
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


I think the code just wants you to mechanically fasten it. Which may give the wall more lateral strength, but I know from experience it's harder to remove properly laminated gyproc than something screwed or nailed. Also, mechanically fastened material will help avoid poor workmanship, cheaping out on adhesives, and wet concrete. As well as possible better situation in a fire.

Those are my opinions. I guess I have been too sensitive because I am more than satisfied with my approach to my situation.
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:33 PM   #43
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I've framed under the codes my whole career (38 years) and they really are "minimal". I see you are a pro drywall installer, you probably knew that in a fire- the paper backing is it's down-fall. I learned that today, http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2003/crame03a.pdf
going to bed--- LOL.

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Old 01-30-2012, 05:21 PM   #44
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


I am actually a Finisher, not an installer - but I used to do it and I still do from time to time.

I don't know what your codes are like across the border but here, things aside from woodframe construction are built pretty good. At least with the builders we work for.

You're not going to Fire Proof a house, the only way that's going to happen is if we live in Concrete Huts with no belongings. From a practical standpoint what we do is attempt to make things Fire Resistant. Resistant. Resistant long enough for the occupants to get out and the local Fire Services to deal with things.

Here all multi-unit dwellings have to have sprinkler systems. I've hit those heads before by accident, they flood a place FAST. Aside from the Fire itself, the smoke is the next major issue. Which is why we seal things with Gyproc, Tape and Special Caulking.

Things have come a long way in the last 40 years. Like you're article states, there's people pushing to go further.. but there's the economics and practicality of the whole situation. They referred to the World Trade Center. Come on... do we really need to build everything so it can take a fully fueled large passenger jet collision?

I'm not worried about the paper of gyproc... and don't think you are either. We don't store gasoline or other flammables, the natural gas... if it leaks... well... we are now dealing with an explosion, not fire.

Framing and minimal codes... here, houses now have to built out of 2x6, not 2x4. Of course we no longer use the clear fir studs of the yester-years. But... I agree with you on the cheaply built houses. They are to code but with the materials used, they are under built. Custom homes are always nice to work in. (Provided the Framer cared! )
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Old 01-30-2012, 09:43 PM   #45
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Foam Insulate All Basement Walls?


Yep, materials are the good, bad and ugly. Sad to say, so is the work quality. Sorry, drywall finisher.

VikingDinKC, any other questions?

Gary

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