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Old 09-14-2006, 08:40 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yummy mummy View Post
hi

the vapor barrier is not against the concrete wall.
the soft pink stuff is right up against the concrete blocks and then the plastic is over it, which faces the inside of the room.


One further question that I have.
I have protruding drain pipes going down the sides, how do I frame around them?
OK yummy,

You confused me. In an earlier Post you had written this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by yummy mummy View Post
it would be a lot of work. the insullation is against block walls, that are not painted.
there is plastic over the insullation facing the outside.
So, I had understood this to mean that the insulation's vapor (plastic) barrier was facing 'outside'. Towards the outside of the living area.

If it is the other way around and the insulation fibers are against the concrete wall, then yes, absolutely YES...you do need to remove it, as Kui****g wrote. It should be away from the concrete wall. There should be a space between it and the concrete...about 2", to allow for ventilation. The issue is not that huge amounts of water are going to come into the basement. The fact is that, concrete absorbs moisture. It is a porous material. Basements are damp by nature because of this. You don't want to place anything directly against concrete that can absorb moisture and can be damaged by it.


Last edited by AtlanticWBConst.; 09-14-2006 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 09-14-2006, 08:45 AM   #17
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No offence, AtlanticWBConst... but how can you get 2 inches spacing between insulation and the concrete wall..? that is a lot of room you are talking about... do you really mean 2 inches... or you mean somthing esle... I suspect...
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Old 09-14-2006, 08:56 AM   #18
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Hi Atlantic.

If I removed it, then did the framing, and then put it back, would I just turn it around so that the vapor barrier is up against the concrete blocks, and then put another vapor barrier in front to cover the fibers?

thanks for the info.
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Old 09-14-2006, 09:00 AM   #19
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you are very sweet to answer all my questions.

The more I think about it the more I think I will remove the insullation.
I think in the end it may be even easier to frame.

Can you recommend any books that I may purchase.
I also like a quick reference with books (the old fashion way)

Thanks a bunch
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Old 09-14-2006, 09:21 AM   #20
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Kui****g,

No offense taken. A 2" air circulation space is created by placing your bottom wall-plate's outside edge 2" away from the concrete wall. Then installing your R-13 insulation onto it (between the studs).

I understand your point about placing a moisture barrier of somekind between a basement concrete freezewall and a living area. If the basement is relatively dry and has been for a long time, that is optional for some homeowners. You see, if a home is built properly by code standards, you ALREADY have a heavy coat of petroleum based waterproofing on the exterior side of your freezewall...from grade level all the way down to the actual footing's surface. That means that NO additional ground moisture is getting in there. The only moisture that the concrete is picking up after that is just what it is aborbing from the inside air. Placing another coat over a wall that is already waterproofed is a waste of time, money and is overkill.

If the house has been wrapped up, water and moisture tight, and there are no moisture issues existing and no history of it as well, then there is no need to create moisture barrier chambers in it. A house NEEDS to be able to circulate air. It needs to 'breath', that is why you see soffit vents and ridge-vents. This allows warm humid air to leave the structure.
That is the reason for the 2" space between the concrete and the living area. To allow for minor humid air to dissipate and evaporate when it mixes with warm drier air.
If a basement has more than a normal level of moisture in it, then there it would be wise to take greater precautions and find out why it is overly damp.

When we are called in to either do a new basement remodel or repair a moisture damaged basement, the first thing we do is grab our moisture meter and check everything along with looking for tell-tale signs of H2O.
We also look into the history of the home.
We recently did a home that the meter was going haywire on. It had supposedly been dried out and a company had come in and 'water-proofed it'. They used epoxy resins to inject and seal any cracks. They used waterproof paint sealant over all the walls. But, water started seaping through at the base of the floor and walls.
So, the point is, paint the walls all you want. If large amounts of water that is going to enter the basement....it WILL come through somewhere else.
If the basement has normal humidity in it, like all basements do, then build in such a way as to allow it to 'ventilate' and 'circulate' moist air..... so that it may evaporate.
It can actually cause larger mold problems when you create those 'Vapor-Moisture' chambers that the experts were doing for a while,....... and are now trying to get away from.

Last edited by AtlanticWBConst.; 09-14-2006 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 09-14-2006, 09:30 AM   #21
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Yummy,

Yes, remove the insulation. If it is in good condition, then re-use it after you finish framing and running your electrical lines.
If you re-use it. Just place the insulation as you normally would with the paper facing towards the living space. Install it between your wood studs using staples. If U feel you want to add some kind of waterproofing between the new walls and the concrete walls, I would suggest sticking to waterproof paint. That is up to you. It is not a cheap product. Generally runs about $20 + per gallon. A gallon doesn't cover much, so buy it in a 5 gallon container.

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Old 09-14-2006, 10:51 AM   #22
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I totally agree with you AtlanticWBConst. on most points you said, so I personally do not think put the plastic barrier against the concrete, then insulation is right... I do think circulation is important, in case there is minor water leak somehow... with plastic, there is no escape...

so my suggestion is to use those use on the roof black paper barrier, they are paper in nature but have some sort of chemical in it making it a bit more than paper... then insulation... I do think the code is not really to ask for cutting out concrete from insulation, i.e. no circulation, rather, it said no direct contact between insulation and concrete...

may be in US, where house are so big, 2" gap is acceptable, but not here in Toronto, when space are gold... 2" means a lot of money here... In addition, if you are 2" apart, how do you keep the insulation from falling towards the concrete?

AltanticWBConst is right about the paint being expensive, and a lot of painting work, so that is why I used the paper again, they are 1/5 the cost, and no work, easy to put up at no time, and it passed the inspection here...

For book recommendation, there is one I bought, it is called somthing like basement renovation, build like a pro..etc.
it use very traditional way of doing it, in many cases I didn't follow his advice... but it has its value...

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Old 09-14-2006, 04:46 PM   #23
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kui****g

I have never hear of this paper that I would put up against the concrete blocks.

What is it called?

Where do you get it and how is it put on?

Therefore, after I put this paper on, I re-install the insullation with the pink fibre touching this paper against the wall and the plastic facing the inside room?


Thanks again

(Studpid questions, but I am a real newbie at this.)
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Old 09-14-2006, 05:11 PM   #24
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Yummy,

He is referring to Roofing Felt (Black Tar paper) Water proof. It is literally a heavy paper impregnated with tar to create waterproofing abilities. It comes in various lengths, but most commonly in 3 foot long black rolls. It is used for roofing: Placed over bare roof exterior sheathing prior to attaching roof shingles onto it.
It is there so that if, any water were to penetrate the 1st layer of roofing shingles, the tar paper adds another level of water-proofing protection.
FWIW, we have never seen it used in the way it has been recommended in this thread... (over Basement Walls).

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Old 09-15-2006, 07:18 AM   #25
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I bought in from HD at $24 Canadian a big roll, I used 2 rolls for my 1000 sq. ft. basement, it has water proofing effect, but not completely, it will not substain heavy water load... I don't know if this is the type AtlanticWBConst referring to, probably, but may be not, you know they have those thick heavy duty type, I am not using those, the one I am using is very thin and flessible...

Anyhow, to put it on is very simple, at the top of your wall, there are wood, just staple it on, or you can use small wood blocks to fit it in.. the paper is very steady, once put on,it won't fall, it is not like plastic flying in the air...

your other understanding in installation is correct...

hope this explanation help
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Old 09-15-2006, 07:25 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KUI****G View Post
I bought in from HD at $24 Canadian a big roll, I used 2 rolls for my 1000 sq. ft. basement, it has water proofing effect, but not completely, it will not substain heavy water load... I don't know if this is the type AtlanticWBConst referring to, probably, but may be not, you know they have those thick heavy duty type, I am not using those, the one I am using is very thin and flessible...

Anyhow, to put it on is very simple, at the top of your wall, there are wood, just staple it on, or you can use small wood blocks to fit it in.. the paper is very steady, once put on,it won't fall, it is not like plastic flying in the air...

your other understanding in installation is correct...

hope this explanation help
Kui****g,

It sounds like you used the thinner '15 pound' roofing felt rather than the heavier '30 pound' type.
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Old 09-15-2006, 10:45 AM   #27
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Hi Atlantic and Kui****g

Atlantic: I don't have paper on one side of my insullation.
One side is plastic and the other side is just the pink fibers.

Also, if I touch this stuff when removing it, should I take some precautions with it? eg. gloves, breathing mask, etc.
Is it dangerous.

Thanks
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Old 09-15-2006, 11:33 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yummy mummy View Post
Hi Atlantic and Kui****g

Atlantic: I don't have paper on one side of my insullation.
One side is plastic and the other side is just the pink fibers.

Also, if I touch this stuff when removing it, should I take some precautions with it? eg. gloves, breathing mask, etc.
Is it dangerous.

Thanks
If it is a solid plastic covering, then that is the vapor barrier. That side (vapor barrier) is always to be faced towards the warm area (living space).

Precautions?
Yes. Fiberglass is an irritant to eyes, throat, respiratory system and to bare skin. However, it won't kill you.

When we install it or handle it:

We like to supply workers with:

1.) Latex or non latex gloves.
2.) Full goggles
3.) Proper safety level dust mask.
4.) Full fitting dispoable white coveralls with a hood. The ones used by painters. Covers from head to foot.
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Old 09-15-2006, 12:33 PM   #29
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AtlanticWBConst probably be right.... I, however, break all the rule... just sometimes ware gloves... but a respiratory mask definitely a good idea... since I only pop in to work on my basement 20 to 30 minutes a day... I didn't want to go through 10 minutes the exercise of putting on/off clothings..

don't believe you can retain 100% the insulation you are tearing off... you should only get 50% back at most, and don't bother reuse the plastic sheets... it better get new ones as they are cheap... and remember the insulation you got is thinner than it come as when you tear off , you will lose 50%, those sticking on the plastic sheets... use them to fill in odd places when you finish, you still need to buy new insulation for the easy to install area... don't be cheap on insulation... it save you gas bill...

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Old 09-15-2006, 01:04 PM   #30
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Atlantic:

I'm afraid to remove it now. Sounds dangerous.
I also will be working on it only for short periods of time in the day.
I also have children (13 and 10).

I guess I will have to cover it when they may be in basement.

But ultimately I will take the precautions that you suggested.
Must think safety first.

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