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basement renovation

30K views 156 replies 12 participants last post by  yummy mummy 
#1 ·
I would like to renovate my basement.
Presently there is wrap around insullation and I would like to know if i can do the studding over the insullation or if I should remove it first and then put it back.

thanks
 
#11 ·
Like MinConst. wrote, Really, there is NO NEED to take that insulation off.
As licensed General Contractors, we have done hundreds upon hundreds of basement remodels in the past 20 years, not to mention General construction and building. As stated, there is a vapor barrier between the concrete and the insulation already, so it is fine.
 
#4 ·
Please remove the insulation, it is much better:

reason 1, in our code, you need to have barrier between insulation and concret wall, the builder didn't do that, you need to do it, by paint, or some sort of paper, see my post, "basement renovation question" talk about that...

reason 2, you wasting space for adding studs on top of it, it is going to be messy too, you will waste a lot of space...

therefore, do yourself a favour, tear down all insulation, put on studs/plates barrier, then insulation again, your insulation tore down can be resused...
 
#6 ·
just remodeled my basement with the help of a friend/handyman. I will share what he told me...

I would recommend using 2X4 studs spaced 16" apart. It provides a stronger wall and more room for the insulation.

The bottom plate can be secured by concrete nails and does not need to be glued.

I am not aware of any code in my area that requires a barrier to be placed between the foundation (poured concrete) wall and insulation. I only used a sheet of platic as a vapor barrier between the insulation and the drywall.

Is the barrier between the insulation and foundation wall neccesary? For what purpose?

Good luck-
 
#7 ·
thanks kyle for information.
I guess there is no need for barrier against concrete blocks. Mine does not have any.

did you secure the bottom plate and top plate first, and then proceeded at 16 inch intervals or did you build it outside and them prop up against the wall.

Is this a possibility?

Thanks for the good luck wishes,
My husband has no clue about handiwork, so I am going to tackle this myself.
He thinks I'm nuts.

Sometimes I agree with him.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Hi,

Insulation:
#1.) The insulation is absolutely FINE the way it is.

Tho, it is best to have a 1-2" ventialtion air space between concrete and un-faced insulation, the present vapor barrier on the exterior side of your insulation makes it adequate.
Dependant on the actual R-Value of the insulation that is already there, you may or may not want to add more insulation when doing the framing. If you choose to add insulation because the existing insulation is not up to R-Value, Use UNFACED insulation and DO NOT add another vapor barrier. Installing another vapor barrier creates an 'envelope' for moisture to get trapped. 2 vapor barriers is actually against building codes.

Framing:
#2.) You could actually use 2x3's since the insulation is already there, but, as a 'newbie', I would advise using all 2x4's. You will want to use pressure treated 2’x4's for the bottom plates (PT on anything that you will attach to concrete). If you feel comfortable with such a tool: Use a 'powder actuated 22 caliber fastening gun'. Use coated 2 ½ “ nails or longer (ceramic ‘coated’ nails have a grey color to them. You need coated nails because the current pressure treated process used for wood contains heavy amounts of copper. This reacts with regular ’bright’ nails and causes rust) Get various levels of power for the firing caps. I suggest #3 & #4. return the boxes you don't use.

Use regular KD grade 2x4 Lumber for the top plates and the studs. Placed 16" OC (On Center). This means what is sounds like. The literal center of each stud (Half of the 1 1/2" will be exactly 16" away from eachother). Make sure that you pick out nice, straight pieces.
If you are unsure of using/renting a nail gun, you can use screws to attach your framing members. If you use screws, get at least 2 ½ “ or longer. I suggest using DECK screws (also for the areas where you attach studs to the bottom PT plate for the same reason as stated above) That length is sufficient, since you are not supporting anything structurally. You are just building ‘partitions’.

Design:
#3.) Do a layout of your basement on paper with the actual measurements of what you want to do with your basement area in relation to walls, closets, rooms, etc.

Materials:
#4.) Use this layout to determine the amount of lumber and other materials you will need.
Remember to get long straight lengths for you top and bottom plates (12’ - 16’)

Method:
#5.) How to build your walls is determined on the age of your home. You see, if you have an older home, then the heights between your concrete floor and your floor joists will be inconsistent. Additionally, there really are no poured-concrete basement floors that are truly level all the way through.
To pre build walls and stand them up and have them fit right, in addition to knowing where to install ‘corners’, corner nailers, etc….is really not in the newbie skill level.
So, I would suggest you just go by the ‘stick-framing’ method. What this is, can be found in #7.)

Note:
#6.) Assuming you have a home 20 years old or less, if you have to build any doorways, it is unnecessary to install actual ‘headers’ on top of the doors, since these are only partition walls. Your house is already built with all the headers and supports that are supposed to be in it. We see this waste of time and lumber a lot in DIY-er basements.

Stick Framing:
#7.) If you are going to put a Sheetrock ceiling in, then it is best to start at your ceiling first and install strapping every 16” OC. This will also give you something to attach any walls that you build, which may run parallel to your floor joists.
After you do that (even if you plan on installing a ‘dropped ceiling’) See the next step:

Walls:
#8) Layout your walls on your floors first by cutting and laying your PT 2x4’s on the floor. Mark where your studs will go FIRST based on your layout needs. Then fasten your bottom plate to the concrete floor. Fire-in your concrete fasteners between each stud. That way, if a nail does not go in all the way, it will not effect your stud placement (which you were smart enough to mark out before -You can also use concrete expandable fasteners for this, like “Red Heads“. Tho this takes A LOT more time)

Marking out the studs for the top plate:
#9) Take, a KD piece of lumber that you will use to make the top plate that will match that bottom plate and place it along side of the now installed PT bottom plate.
Transfer the marked stud lines onto the top plate using a speed square (triangle). Much quicker and accurate this way. It’s how we frame entire houses.

How to level the bottom and top of walls:
#10) Cut a STRAIGHT piece of 2x4 to just over the length of your floor to ceiling height. You will use this as a straight edge to place your level against to mark up where your top plate will be on the ceiling. Just hold the straight 2x4 against one side of the bottom plate. Place a 4’ level or longer level’ against it. (we prefer to use a 6’ level for this) Then line it up to the ceiling and make a mark on the joist or strapping for the matching edge of your top plate.
Do this at one end, of the length of the bottom plate. And then at the other end of the bottom plate. Laying out this way for each length of wall.

Studs:
#11) Take the measurement for each of your studs. Cut them exact, to a 16th of an inch to get the stud to fit tight, but not so tight that it bends or bows. If you shortcut a stud, you can shove a shim into the space to tighten it. (Side point- virtually every piece of lumber has what is called a ‘crown‘. A crown is a slight ‘hump‘. Try to make all the crowns of your studs face one way…usually towards the inside of a room. This way, your walls aren’t wavy)
On all doorways that will have either a door or some kind of casing: Make sure that you 'double' the studs going all around the opening. This gives you about 2 1/2" beyond the door jam to be able to nail your standard 2 1/2 " casing to.

Last: As you go along, you can check your walls and studs periodically for alignment using your levels, framing square, eyeball, tape measure and even a string stretched tight to make sure a wall is straight.

:thumbsup:
GOOD LUCK!
 
#9 ·
I am in Toronto, the code does require a barrier between the insulation and the concrete, it is not the plastic type though, generally, HD book recommend paint,... I used those black paper which is used on roofing,

I can think of one scentific reason for this, should there small water leak, example, from rod hole, water does not contact insulation immediately, instead it will contact the paper and got vent away gradually, assuming the water is not big...

Anyhow, reguardless of you want to have this barieer or not, you should take down existing insulation before setting up the studs.... you will find out it is much easier for you to set up the bottom/top plates without the insulation in your way,... I did that on mind, not only save you a lot of space as the insulation is bouncy, it is not a straight line...you end up more work with it in your way... tearing down insulation is much easier than you thought, I done mine in about 2 hours for the whole basement....

in addition, once you tear down the insulation, you got a chance to see if there is any serious cracks in your fundation wall, this is kind of a side product though...
 
#16 · (Edited)
hi

the vapor barrier is not against the concrete wall.
the soft pink stuff is right up against the concrete blocks and then the plastic is over it, which faces the inside of the room.


One further question that I have.
I have protruding drain pipes going down the sides, how do I frame around them?
OK yummy,

You confused me. In an earlier Post you had written this:

it would be a lot of work. the insullation is against block walls, that are not painted.
there is plastic over the insullation facing the outside.
So, I had understood this to mean that the insulation's vapor (plastic) barrier was facing 'outside'. Towards the outside of the living area.

If it is the other way around and the insulation fibers are against the concrete wall, then yes, absolutely YES...you do need to remove it, as Kuiporng wrote. It should be away from the concrete wall. There should be a space between it and the concrete...about 2", to allow for ventilation. The issue is not that huge amounts of water are going to come into the basement. The fact is that, concrete absorbs moisture. It is a porous material. Basements are damp by nature because of this. You don't want to place anything directly against concrete that can absorb moisture and can be damaged by it.
 
#13 ·
That is why I like to do basement renovation myself. Not to say contractors are bad... but sometimes, you can exercise the freedom of doing things your way... hiring a contractor, he will make most decisions for you... although in theory, one can agrue you are the boss, you can direct him to do it in your own way, but this is not practical and generally not the case...

anyway... to frame around pipes... you need to setup plates on the roof and bottom and stud around it... sometimes the plate on top is not at the roof, instead, it is kind of a stair type structure on the ceiling in order not to waste spaces... those are more tricky than regular walls, I suggest you work on those later once you got experience in building regular walls... creativity is the key on framing around odd objects... there is no one rule... it all base on what materials you have on hand and what imagination you can come up with.. it can be done many different ways and still be good...
 
#14 ·
Hi Kuiporng:

I am glad you mentioned that there is no hard and fast rule about framing around pipes or other objects. I do have a lot of creativity, so I will come up with something.

In regards to the insullation that is up against the cement blocks.
Is it ok if there is no vapor barrier betwee the cement blocks and the insullation, or should there be?

The concrete blocks are right up against the pink suff.

By the way, you have great information for me. I appreciate your knowledge on this subject.

Have you ever attended the Rona do it yourself workshops?
They have one on framing and drywall soon and I would like to attend.
Just wondering if they would be worthwhile?


Thanks.

yummy mummy
 
#15 ·
Hi Yummy Mummy,

Nice to hear someone like me to DIY on basement renovation. I am doing mine and at the stage of about to put in drywall. I definitely like to share any experience I came across in the past 9 months. You can also find a lot of info in my other thread if you have the patient to read it... otherwise... I will also answer anything I saw in this thread as renovation is really my natural "interests" rather than "computing"...

As I said, in Toronto, the code does require a barrier between concrete wall and insulation, may be that is not the case in US...as I have applied for permit for my basement renovation. I therefore need to do so, have no choice... if you ask me why... I really do not know 100% but if the code said so... there must be scientific reason for that I am unaware of...

I still not change my opinion to recommend you to remove your existing insulation before installing your studs and plates.. it may look big job before you do it... but once you start... it is really piece of cake... and I myself think this is the "proper way"... I am glad I did it that way myself...

Regarding how to learn stuff.. I generally rely on : books, internets.. and personal visit a friend of my who did it and get some idea from him..etc... the knowledge is generally a composite product from different sources... I seldom see one source give you 100% recommendations that is the best for your case... but for me Books is very important as it is old fashion or traditional... but it is a fast referencing source ... expecially when you are at the plumbing stage...

at last feel free to ask me any questions...
 
#20 · (Edited)
Kuiporng,

No offense taken. A 2" air circulation space is created by placing your bottom wall-plate's outside edge 2" away from the concrete wall. Then installing your R-13 insulation onto it (between the studs).

I understand your point about placing a moisture barrier of somekind between a basement concrete freezewall and a living area. If the basement is relatively dry and has been for a long time, that is optional for some homeowners. You see, if a home is built properly by code standards, you ALREADY have a heavy coat of petroleum based waterproofing on the exterior side of your freezewall...from grade level all the way down to the actual footing's surface. That means that NO additional ground moisture is getting in there. The only moisture that the concrete is picking up after that is just what it is aborbing from the inside air. Placing another coat over a wall that is already waterproofed is a waste of time, money and is overkill.

If the house has been wrapped up, water and moisture tight, and there are no moisture issues existing and no history of it as well, then there is no need to create moisture barrier chambers in it. A house NEEDS to be able to circulate air. It needs to 'breath', that is why you see soffit vents and ridge-vents. This allows warm humid air to leave the structure.
That is the reason for the 2" space between the concrete and the living area. To allow for minor humid air to dissipate and evaporate when it mixes with warm drier air.
If a basement has more than a normal level of moisture in it, then there it would be wise to take greater precautions and find out why it is overly damp.

When we are called in to either do a new basement remodel or repair a moisture damaged basement, the first thing we do is grab our moisture meter and check everything along with looking for tell-tale signs of H2O.
We also look into the history of the home.
We recently did a home that the meter was going haywire on. It had supposedly been dried out and a company had come in and 'water-proofed it'. They used epoxy resins to inject and seal any cracks. They used waterproof paint sealant over all the walls. But, water started seaping through at the base of the floor and walls.
So, the point is, paint the walls all you want. If large amounts of water that is going to enter the basement....it WILL come through somewhere else.
If the basement has normal humidity in it, like all basements do, then build in such a way as to allow it to 'ventilate' and 'circulate' moist air..... so that it may evaporate.
It can actually cause larger mold problems when you create those 'Vapor-Moisture' chambers that the experts were doing for a while,....... and are now trying to get away from.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Yummy,

Yes, remove the insulation. If it is in good condition, then re-use it after you finish framing and running your electrical lines.
If you re-use it. Just place the insulation as you normally would with the paper facing towards the living space. Install it between your wood studs using staples. If U feel you want to add some kind of waterproofing between the new walls and the concrete walls, I would suggest sticking to waterproof paint. That is up to you. It is not a cheap product. Generally runs about $20 + per gallon. A gallon doesn't cover much, so buy it in a 5 gallon container.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I totally agree with you AtlanticWBConst. on most points you said, so I personally do not think put the plastic barrier against the concrete, then insulation is right... I do think circulation is important, in case there is minor water leak somehow... with plastic, there is no escape...

so my suggestion is to use those use on the roof black paper barrier, they are paper in nature but have some sort of chemical in it making it a bit more than paper... then insulation... I do think the code is not really to ask for cutting out concrete from insulation, i.e. no circulation, rather, it said no direct contact between insulation and concrete...

may be in US, where house are so big, 2" gap is acceptable, but not here in Toronto, when space are gold... 2" means a lot of money here... In addition, if you are 2" apart, how do you keep the insulation from falling towards the concrete?

AltanticWBConst is right about the paint being expensive, and a lot of painting work, so that is why I used the paper again, they are 1/5 the cost, and no work, easy to put up at no time, and it passed the inspection here...

For book recommendation, there is one I bought, it is called somthing like basement renovation, build like a pro..etc.
it use very traditional way of doing it, in many cases I didn't follow his advice... but it has its value...
 
#23 ·
kuiporng

I have never hear of this paper that I would put up against the concrete blocks.

What is it called?

Where do you get it and how is it put on?

Therefore, after I put this paper on, I re-install the insullation with the pink fibre touching this paper against the wall and the plastic facing the inside room?


Thanks again

(Studpid questions, but I am a real newbie at this.)
 
#24 · (Edited)
Yummy,

He is referring to Roofing Felt (Black Tar paper) Water proof. It is literally a heavy paper impregnated with tar to create waterproofing abilities. It comes in various lengths, but most commonly in 3 foot long black rolls. It is used for roofing: Placed over bare roof exterior sheathing prior to attaching roof shingles onto it.
It is there so that if, any water were to penetrate the 1st layer of roofing shingles, the tar paper adds another level of water-proofing protection.
FWIW, we have never seen it used in the way it has been recommended in this thread... (over Basement Walls).
 
#25 ·
I bought in from HD at $24 Canadian a big roll, I used 2 rolls for my 1000 sq. ft. basement, it has water proofing effect, but not completely, it will not substain heavy water load... I don't know if this is the type AtlanticWBConst referring to, probably, but may be not, you know they have those thick heavy duty type, I am not using those, the one I am using is very thin and flessible...

Anyhow, to put it on is very simple, at the top of your wall, there are wood, just staple it on, or you can use small wood blocks to fit it in.. the paper is very steady, once put on,it won't fall, it is not like plastic flying in the air...

your other understanding in installation is correct...

hope this explanation help
 
#28 ·
Hi Atlantic and Kuiporng

Atlantic: I don't have paper on one side of my insullation.
One side is plastic and the other side is just the pink fibers.

Also, if I touch this stuff when removing it, should I take some precautions with it? eg. gloves, breathing mask, etc.
Is it dangerous.

Thanks
If it is a solid plastic covering, then that is the vapor barrier. That side (vapor barrier) is always to be faced towards the warm area (living space).

Precautions?
Yes. Fiberglass is an irritant to eyes, throat, respiratory system and to bare skin. However, it won't kill you.

When we install it or handle it:

We like to supply workers with:

1.) Latex or non latex gloves.
2.) Full goggles
3.) Proper safety level dust mask.
4.) Full fitting dispoable white coveralls with a hood. The ones used by painters. Covers from head to foot.
 
#29 · (Edited)
AtlanticWBConst probably be right.... I, however, break all the rule... just sometimes ware gloves... but a respiratory mask definitely a good idea... since I only pop in to work on my basement 20 to 30 minutes a day... I didn't want to go through 10 minutes the exercise of putting on/off clothings..

don't believe you can retain 100% the insulation you are tearing off... you should only get 50% back at most, and don't bother reuse the plastic sheets... it better get new ones as they are cheap... and remember the insulation you got is thinner than it come as when you tear off , you will lose 50%, those sticking on the plastic sheets... use them to fill in odd places when you finish, you still need to buy new insulation for the easy to install area... don't be cheap on insulation... it save you gas bill...
 
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