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srfcocoa 12-01-2011 10:34 PM

Wall/Floor Layout
 
If you're laying out a wall, deck, or whatever it may be, assume you're using 16" OC, what do you do if your final stud/joist doesn't land on 16" - for example if you're laying out a deck 16" OC and you get to the end and it's 20" to the rim joist

Is there a rule of thumb for situations like this?

Also, when laying out do you always start from the left or right or does that even matter?

thanks guys

joecaption 12-01-2011 10:43 PM

Left or right is fine. Someone messed up if it 20" to the rim joist.
The size decided to make a deck is important to concider what lengths lumber is sold in.
Size the deck wrong and there's lots more waiste.
If for some odd ball reason the deck had to be that size just add an extra one at 10" so there's no sag between the joist.
When building a wall it's best to try and keep it so full or 1/2 sheets of drywall will work out when ever possible.

AndyGump 12-01-2011 10:56 PM

Quote:

If for some odd ball reason the deck had to be that size just add an extra one at 10" so there's no sag between the joist.
Or, just keep it at 16" then you will have 4" to the rim joist.

Andy.

srfcocoa 12-01-2011 11:14 PM

thanks for the info, kinda figured that is how it goes but I didn't know if there were any rules of thumb or anything like that

thank ya

Willie T 12-02-2011 09:00 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Very seldom does a deck come out right on 16" centers if you are constrained to line up with an existing structure. Freestanding? That's different. You can make the deck any size that's convenient.

Personally, since you are doing the framing, I would simply shift the whole layout to give me equal remainders at both ends. Maybe even look at starting the joist layout right in the center, working in both directions. (This will accomplish the same thing.)

While all this is still just pencil marks on the boards, you can experiment with a dozen different layout looks.

Don't sweat the relatively small amount of cost in excess tails........ You are going to finish the ends by cutting them off with a saw anyway, so all your ends will necessarily end up running longer than the layout on an "open ended" deck. Of course, a deck enclosed by surrounding walls is a different story.

The drawing below will show what I mean. The top is the original layout... the bottom is "shifted".

Of course it's up to you as to which you think would look better if the fasteners are going to show to create a visual pattern. Just bear in mind that it is small, subtle details like this...... and things like fasteners all perfectly aligned one to the other... and the butt joints either VERY randomly placed, or staggered in a specific repeating pattern every six rows or so.... that will be the things people will subconsciously absorb without knowing it.

These tiny details are why you often think one job is much sharper than another... yet you really seem to have no idea why you feel this way.

srfcocoa 12-02-2011 11:03 AM

Makes sense to do that when doing decking but would you do that if you were framing up a wall for drywall or a floor for subflooring? Good illustration by the way

Willie T 12-02-2011 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srfcocoa (Post 784002)
Makes sense to do that when doing decking but would you do that if you were framing up a wall for drywall or a floor for subflooring? Good illustration by the way

No, you would not do this sort of a layout on a wall. One reason being that a wall gets covered so that the fasteners are never seen again. Laying out on 16" centers from one end of the wall allows people, later on, to more easily locate the hidden studs or firring strips.

Also, in some methods of framing, the layout for the flooring joists, the wall studs, and the roofing members is designed and calculated to have identical layouts so that each piece of lumber falls directly on top of the piece under it.... transferring the loads straight through solid framing, not the spaces between the framing members.

Ninjaframer 12-02-2011 11:31 AM

In wall framing the purpose of 16 oc layout is for sheathing to break. If your last layout is needed for a sheathing joint- put it in. If it doesn't break leave it out. Your not over spanned at 20"

Willie T 12-02-2011 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninjaframer (Post 784025)
In wall framing the purpose of 16 oc layout is for sheathing to break. If your last layout is needed for a sheathing joint- put it in. If it doesn't break leave it out. Your not over spanned at 20"

Unfortunately, this can often get you a red flag (failed inspection). If plans call for 16" centers, you have no recourse when trying to "reason" with the inspector who fails your work if you violated this layout.

Joe Carola 12-02-2011 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srfcocoa
If you're laying out a wall, deck, or whatever it may be, assume you're using 16" OC, what do you do if your final stud/joist doesn't land on 16" - for example if you're laying out a deck 16" OC and you get to the end and it's 20" to the rim joist

Is there a rule of thumb for situations like this?

Also, when laying out do you always start from the left or right or does that even matter?

thanks guys

You always go with 16 center til the end . Don't see what the problem is.

Ninjaframer 12-02-2011 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie T
Unfortunately, this can often get you a red flag (failed inspection). If plans call for 16" centers, you have no recourse when trying to "reason" with the inspector who fails your work if you violated this layout.

Obviously if it's speced out for 16oc you make sure you have a stud every 16. The code where I live allows exterior bearing walls to be up to 24" oc as I believe the UBC allows as well. Not saying that's good just that if you have a span of 20" at the end of a wall and it isn't engineered for 16" oc - your ok to leave the last one out. It often makes insulating easier to do so.

Willie T 12-02-2011 03:59 PM

We are contributing on a site for DO IT YOURSELF builders. There is no "obviously" that we can safely assume.

I understand you feel the need to defend what you said. But please, we have to think about our readers before we try to do so. Often the things we say can lead an unsuspecting person to forge straight ahead into foolish, expensive, or even dangerous mistakes. That should never happen. And then one of us is left trying to justify something else......... the reason we feel "they should have known better".

There are "work arounds" and alternatives to almost everything. We know that. But a novice may not. Here on a forum like this, all that is needed is for the readers to be comfortable in trusting that they have been told the best, safest and most legal methods.

Ninjaframer 12-02-2011 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willie T
We are contributing on a site for DO IT YOURSELF builders. There is no "obviously" that we can safely assume.

I understand you feel the need to defend what you said. But please, we have to think about our readers before we try to do so. Often the things we say can lead an unsuspecting person to forge straight ahead into foolish, expensive, or even dangerous mistakes. That should never happen. And then one of us is left trying to justify something else......... the reason we feel "they should have known better".

There are "work arounds" and alternatives to almost everything. We know that. But a novice may not. Here on a forum like this, all that is needed is for the readers to be comfortable in trusting that they have been told the best, safest and most legal methods.

Your post seems to make the assumption that you have either seen his plans or know what his project is, if I read correctly he is asking a hypathetical about common practice and if you look in the uniform res building code book I believe you will find that 24" oc is the max oc spacing for wall framing.

Ninjaframer 12-02-2011 04:42 PM

Sorry but name calling is not a substitute for facts. If your so concerned with providing correct information than KNOW your facts. I have a fairly good knowledge base where framing is concerned (17 years worth) and was attempting to explain common practice to someone who doesn't have a clue, my explanation falls well within The parameters allowed by code and without seeing a set of plans its a pretty good rule of thumb,Wich is what the op asked for, I'm sorry if that offends you.

Gary in WA 12-02-2011 11:09 PM

Srfcocoa, the last layout depends on the application, for me anyway.

In a deck you need the 16”oc to meet the decking material span requirements, though I sometime move the last joist to center rather than have an exposed nail pattern at 4” from rim. Or set last common one to accommodate post thickness going through joist-bay, attaching to the rim.

On floor sheathing, I will move the last joist 16’ from the rim to simplify insulating the rim joist later as required by Code. You don’t want a joist sitting on the inside edge of the mud-sill blocking the rim from inside access. Some sheathing is rated for larger spans. I change the joist layout (moving joists) for toilet/shower drains and HVAC, according to fixture placement on the plans. That is still keeping within the 16, 19.2 or 24” on center layout stated on approved plans for solid or engineered wood.

In interior wall framing, I move it to simplify gun-nailing and reduce the angled (weakened) nail installation in the too-tight space at the last stud/partition (when unable to back-nail). You may need to break the wall sheathing (exterior) layout (coming from the end corner after running as normal) to get full shear at the end of the wall rather than a 4” rip in the corner, Inspector would never buy that. Corner shear panels are required, minimum sizes vary by Code/location. Keep Codes in mind when laying-out, truss/rafter within required 5” of bearing stud or 1” if only one top plate;
http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...002_par007.htm

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...002_par008.htm

Gary


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