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dgfit 02-01-2014 05:07 PM

Subfloor ok for framing inspection?
 
I'm about to call for my rough framing inspection for the joist/stud repairs done with my bathroom remodel. Do inspectors typically expect or care if the subfloor is installed?

TarheelTerp 02-01-2014 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgfit (Post 1300205)
I'm about to call for my rough framing inspection for the joist/stud repairs
Do inspectors typically expect or care if the subfloor is installed?

If the subfloor isn't installed what are those studs attached to?

oh'mike 02-01-2014 05:54 PM

If the joists can not be viewed if the subfloor is installed---the it must be left open---

You might be able to get that answer from the building department---might---

dgfit 02-01-2014 06:13 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Thanks - the joists are visible from the first floor. The before pic below gives an idea of what I am fixing. Sometime probly in the50's, someone replaced the 2x8 joists with 2x6 for a mud bed and then badly notched, hacked, etc. to make way for plumbing and electrical. I am sistering / replacing the joists back to 2x8 and fixing the studs. Already walked through all the plans with the inspector but didn't ask him about the subfloor. Was hoping to get it in this weekend



Attachment 80635

oh'mike 02-01-2014 06:20 PM

I'd get the subfloor installed before he shows--if you are confident that your framing is acceptable---

He may be looking for fire blocking between floors--that is an old balloon framed structure? If so, get that in before he comes also.

Gary Evans 02-01-2014 07:24 PM

I only see one picture and it's just about meaningless.

From the tiny bit I can see it's looks really really old and not very good.

dgfit 02-01-2014 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Evans
I only see one picture and it's just about meaningless. From the tiny bit I can see it's looks really really old and not very good.

Thanks Gary - you gave me great advice on my other thread about this subject. Here I was just asking about inspectors expectations regarding subfloors being installed.

gregzoll 02-01-2014 10:44 PM

That is how they built them back then. No one notched it back in the 50's. That is real lumber, that if you took a tape measure to, you will find that it is 2"x4" & 2"x6", etc. lumber. That stuff probably has dulled enough drill bits and saw blades, if you have tried to cut or drill into it. It is like Iron, when it gets this old.

dgfit 02-01-2014 10:53 PM

Surprisingly, it's the same sizes as today's dimensional lumber yet it was built in 1927. And it has been very badly notched for both the cast iron and steel plumbing and knob and tube wiring.

gregzoll 02-01-2014 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgfit (Post 1300338)
Surprisingly, it's the same sizes as today's dimensional lumber yet it was built in 1927. And it has been very badly notched for both the cast iron and steel plumbing and knob and tube wiring.

Again, that is how they built them. As for being the same size as today's dimensional lumber, that is no where near what today's lumber is, from that age of a home.

Back in that day, they knew how to build homes. It is only when you start doing what you are doing, is when Balloon framing can collapse, without something holding the outside walls in place.

dgfit 02-01-2014 11:58 PM

3 Attachment(s)
I will post pics in the morning showing measurements of the 2x8 joists in basement and first floor.

The joists in this bath have clearly been replaced with smaller 2x6 joists to make room for the 2" mud bed that I removed. The old nails that held the 2x8 are still there. Some joists were removed entirely to make room for a 50's era tub with steel drain pipes run through notched joists and studs and joined to the cast iron stack. One joists was removed entirely and replaced with a 2x4 set on edge on top of shims over the foyer wall. Pieces of 2x4 were rested on the lip of the cast iron stack in order to add more support. A couple of the joists are cracking from where they were notched.

Attachment 80646



Attachment 80648



Attachment 80649

gregzoll 02-02-2014 12:24 AM

Those beams were notched for ties that held them in place, to stiffen them. Those cuts were not made for plumbing in post #11, 2nd picture. Now the other cuts in picture 1 of post #11, were made for plumbing.

But also those beams are about 4"x6" or 4"x8", in Old Growth Pine. That wood could handle that type of cuts, and not flex.

The problems occur, when you start tearing into the structure like you are, and start trying to go and make the home true & straight. You find that you have more work then you realize, when you start correcting Balloon Framing that has settled & shrunk over the years.

What are you using for bracing on the structure, so that it does not flex, while you are trying to get it true & back to where you can start making it a more modern structure inside & out?

What type of foundation do you have under the first floor, that the structure is sitting on?

dgfit 02-02-2014 12:58 AM

1 Attachment(s)
If you expand the pic below you will see the pipes that ran through the notches shown in the pics. These joists have flexed and are cracking due to these notches.

Attachment 80652

The existing joists both in the basement and in the first floor are the same height as the new joists I just bought.

I had to tear into the wall because one if the steel drain pipes corroded through. That pipe was encased in the mud bed. That led to finding the hack job someone had done to the joists.

gregzoll 02-02-2014 02:22 AM

They are not cracking due to the notches. They were cracking due to the weight of the human body and water in the tub, that was in that location.

Balloon framing is not good in structural means, in these kind of situations. But when homes, apartment buildings, hotels, stores, offices were built with this kind of framing, they have held up to the test of time and are still standing.

Any members that may have been added in the 50's, were probably the ones that were showing stress fracturing. As for that old growth lumber, it is as hard as Iron by this time.

You are worrying more about these little things, then getting the structure sound and true, so that you are not going to run into problems twenty, thirty years down the road, after you are done rebuilding it.

Fix the problems, stop worrying about what someone did sixty, seventy years ago.

dgfit 02-02-2014 09:17 AM

Every joist in the bathroom was replaced (probably in the 50's) and every one of the joists have been badly notched for either plumbing or electrical. The new new joists were rated to handle the dead and live loads for the span but they have flexed, and are cracking at the point the notches were made. If the notches were not made then the joists would not be failing. I suppose it's also true that they would not be failing if no weight had been placed on them. In addition, studs were very badly notched to make way for the cast iron stack and fittings. I am replacing the stack with ABS so it will fit in the current space without hacking, adding and repairing framing to restore the integrity and replacing the 2x6 joists with 2x8 joists because the joists are failing and to replace the mud bed.

The 2x8 joists throughout the home are actually 1.5 x 7.25. It surprised me but it's true. Maybe they have dried and shrunk - I dunno. Regarding the density - I am also in the process of replacing the plumbing and electrical through the entire house (all under permit). I have found most of the 2x4 plates and studs to be considerably harder to bore or cut than the joists, but neither have presented any real difficulty for my 1/2 inch drill and sawzall. Granted, I only had to cut only once to shorten a small brace to make way for a sistered joist. But I have bored a couple dozen new holes (according to code).

All of this work is under permit and I have walked through the plans with the respective inspectors. I have asked questions about it all along the way on this forum, but I find other forums to be much more helpful because they don't elicit the kind of trolling crap that has occurred in this and other thread on this forum. But this one is easier for posting pics directly from my phone.


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