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Old 10-06-2009, 04:49 PM   #16
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Questions on a deck I just built.


[quote=stearns86;337140]If I had a wood deck, you are correct that would be pretty simple. If I were to do that though I'd have a big gap at the end of the deck that would not look good. Having the composite with the fascia makes this a bit trickier. Also, if you look at the picture I'd have alot of work to do that because I have all the other posts for the railing i bolted in and more or less I'd have to remove all the carriage bolts from all that which is a a huge pain.


I appreciate your comments and your help. Some people were making this tougher than it needed to be. The deck is built. Building codes and other crap aren't helping me with my question. Thanks again and let me know if you think that will be ok.

quote]

You are thinking I'm talking about adding on to the rim joist. No, what I'm talking about is 2-2x8's bolted to the post under the joist on the back side of those post. Less than 30 minute job w/an electric impact & some lags, or pre-drill holes & thru bolt. It's basically the same as your support post @ 10'.

Your way of adding more post will work, but in 26 years of building decks I've learned the easier way of doing things.

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Old 10-06-2009, 05:14 PM   #17
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Questions on a deck I just built.


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....You are thinking I'm talking about adding on to the rim joist. No, what I'm talking about is 2-2x8's bolted to the post under the joist on the back side of those post. Less than 30 minute job w/an electric impact & some lags, or pre-drill holes & thru bolt. It's basically the same as your support post @ 10'.
While I can't say I'm overly impressed with the deckguy's socialization skills, I have to say that he is giving you a pretty good idea here.
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Old 10-06-2009, 06:10 PM   #18
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Questions on a deck I just built.


I understand what building codes are for and permits. I work in construction(sales). I sell in commercial construction and see this stuff daily. Locally there have been issues with decks failing. The #1 reason is because they aren't attached to homes correctly. My deck I can assure you is attached to my house correctly. I have 1/2"x10" lags holding a 2x8 directly to the floor joists of my house. I had so many lag bolts holding the ledger onto the house that we were having a hard time fitting the joist hangers on the ledger. As I have mentioned 20 times in this thread, I built the deck back exactly how it was built before. It lasted 20 years with cedar wood, nails, not a single lag bolt or carriage bolt and ancient builiding methods. So I am more than confident I don't have an issue here.

I made a mistake with the outer board, and I am trying to fix it. I'd like to add I finished my basement last year with no permit. Everything was done by union guys on the side. I used metal studs for framing, used a gas actuated gun to shoot the track down, etc, etc. The plumbing is done to code, electrical done to code, and so on. I guess my basement will fail also. I'd say 75%+ of the finished basements where I live are done with no permit or anything. I'd love to get a permit and such, but where I live the hoops you have to jump through are quite ridiculous.

Ok, so back on topic. I took some pictures for you guys that are actually trying to help me. I still don't see how I can do what you want Deckman. The pictures will give you an idea why I can't picture what you are saying.






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Old 10-06-2009, 06:28 PM   #19
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Questions on a deck I just built.


That picture changed nothing as far as how I would go about fixing your problem. Bolt/lag screw another beam to the post below the joist on the back side of those post. Not sure why you can't picture what to do.
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Old 10-06-2009, 06:36 PM   #20
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That picture changed nothing as far as how I would go about fixing your problem. Bolt/lag screw another beam to the post below the joist on the back side of those post. Not sure why you can't picture what to do.
I get it. I think. I am mildly retarded(joking) so bare with me. Here is the issue. Then I have wood showing below the fascia. If I use another 2x8 then that will certainly go below the fascia. Go to the first picture of the thread and you may gather what I mean. Heck if I know. Thanks again for your help. I accidently posted one picture twice.


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Old 10-06-2009, 06:49 PM   #21
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Questions on a deck I just built.


I think that what DECKMAN suggests is for you to build a girder in back of the front row of posts.

Kind of like the girder in the center of your deck,It'll be back far enough from the fascia and low enough that that no one will notice.
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:41 PM   #22
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Questions on a deck I just built.


I wrote a scathing post, but then I thought about it, and came to terms with two things. First, I realized it's not going to help you with your mistakes if I sat there and picked apart your design. So I'll merely just list the mistakes I see, and suggest some fixes. Second thing I realized is that picking apart your work isn't going to help any future reader walk away with new knowledge.

So first, here are some general suggestions to all future readers:

1. Read the AWC's deck guide. Please. It will save you so much heartache and angst. And it's free. But note: it describes the minimum requirement, as if the the deck is built inside of a warehouse. It does not cover snow, wind, or seismic loads. Those issues are usually treated locally by each town or jurisdiction (many, many towns use the guide as a starting point, and add on blurbs and sketches to augment the design for local conditions).

2. The permit process is there to protect the property owner. Any BS about it being hard or difficult is just plain bunk. You will never convince me that it's hard. I deal with it on a daily basis. It's not hard. I hear that from people, and I think "that guy is hiding something deep and disturbing in his closet if he's using that as an excuse to not get a permit."

3. On top of the permit process helping you, it will prevent a smart buyer from calling you on it when you go to sell. They'll ask for concessions. And if you're going to wrap yourself in the blanket of "I never plan to sell," well that's ok. I guess your heirs will find out about it all when they go to sell.

Now for the technical issues and suggestions:

1. The method of attachment I see in the photos between the post and the beams is prohibited. The beams have to be seated, either through notching the post, or sitting the beams on top of the posts using correct fasteners. They need to be redone properly.

2. Honestly, my eyes could be playing tricks on me, but is that a single 2x10 beam running along the centerline of the deck (parallel to the house), not 2-2x10's? If it is, that needs to be addressed as well. That's a prohibited feature in my state. But you're in a pickle, because the beam you have was bolted to the posts. And if it really is two 2x10's, unfortunately it's still wrong because they're bolted to the side of the posts.

3. It could be the light and shadows in the photos, but I also don't see any blocking. That's probably the easiest fix.
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Old 10-06-2009, 10:14 PM   #23
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Questions on a deck I just built.


You should stick to sales as construction does not seem to be your forte. I noticed several things about your deck framing that are not compliant from your pictures. Improperly sized posts. Girder and rim joist (bearing load) not resting on posts but rather through bolted (read on to see why this is a potential problem). Insufficient girders. Posts not resting on the center of the piers causing uneven weight distribution on footers. No hurricane ties. Bolts less than 2 inches from the edge of the post. I would bet improper nails on the joist to beam connection and that the cut ends of the posts where not treated with copper napathrene. I have to assume you installed neoprene flashing over the banboard and flashed the ledger accordingly. I also have to assume your bolting of the ledger is sufficient, staggered, and spaced appropriately as I can not verify any of this from the pictures posted. I also must assume you verified that your railings meet the 200# impact requirement.

More deck information for you: Due to the preservatives used in pressure treated lumber galvanized fasteners and hangers have a high likelihood of failure due to corrosion. Stainless steel is a better choice for applications involving preservative treated lumber. If galvanized are used zmax should be used and measures should be taken to protect the fasteners and hardware.

Building the deck exactly as it was before (except for the substitution of bolts versus nails in the ledger and posts) does not ensure it will last twenty years. The original deck lasting twenty years only means it was not placed in service in a manner that caused a failure. It does not mean the deck would not have failed if placed under duress in any number of settings. The cedar used also was not corrosive to fasteners, modern preservatives are. Framing is more complicated then you think and there are many more considerations that go into properly contructing a deck then I care to go into. The codes are a guideline to help you get the most basic considerations accomplished so as to minimize the risk of injury or death to you and the general public.

As to the basement, here is a true story for you shared to me by a Realtor I have done some work for: Her client finished the basement of their home without a building permit. Another Realtor showing the property to his clients checked with the county to see that all the proper inspections had been done on the finished basement. The county upon being notified the basement was finished when their records showed otherwise did the following; Had the HO file for building permit. Fined the HO for not having a permit. Required the HO to remove all the drywall so the basement could be inspected. The basement failed inspection for framing, plumbing, and electrical that the homeowner was sure he did to code. Somehow I doubt the building official really cared if it was union done, homeowner done, or done under a prevailing wage contract as that is all irrelevant with regards to the basement being done to the minimum safety standards.
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Old 10-06-2009, 10:44 PM   #24
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Questions on a deck I just built.


I would like to see this deck be safer.

1. Add solid blocking between each joist, as per code over the beam to prevent lateral displacement (rotation).

2. Add the double 2x8 inside the ledger support as mentioned. The existing single 2x8 - if doug/fir, is rated to carry 1348# at 7.5' span. Your load of standard minimum 50# per sq.ft. with a 3.75' span, times 1/2 joist- 5' is 1875# You would sag, hence add the doubler. And your bolting so close to the ends would fail, rather than way safer with a 6x6 post being notched.You are relying on bolt strength alone to carry the load.

3. Your beam (2-2x8's) under the lapping joists= if spanning 7.5' x 50# x 10' joists = 3750# D./F. 2-2x8's (3x8) is rated for 2248# You are overloaded by 1502#. These should have been 2-2x10 for a 7' span or a 2x14 for an 8' span.
Here is the load sequence: 3x8---6x6---4x8---2x12---3x10---2x14---6x8 You can see where you are, 5-6 beam sizes shy. I would reduce the span with another post/pier under centers.

4. The shear hangers on the ledger require 6-10d nails (3"), to obtain full loads. As you have a single outside rim (ledger), I presume you used 1-1/2" nails there. You multiply the hanger load (1210#) by .77 because of the shorter nails wrongly used = 932#. Your load at rim is 10' Jst. x 50# x 1.34 (16"o.c.) = 670#

Sorry we couldn't help you sooner, than later. I hope you use the advice given to make your deck safer by building to the very minimum code.
Be safe, Gary
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Old 10-06-2009, 11:26 PM   #25
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Questions on a deck I just built.


Well I came here with a simple question. Some of you have given me the simple answer and others have pretty much blasted me on here. I thought this was a DIY forum and not the other forum which is for professional contractors.

To the ones that have offered help. I appreciate it. The deck is built. I am looking for a simple fix. You have offered me the help I asked for. The most recent post by GBR is Washington is a good example.

The others have basically blasted me. I am a DIY. I have never built a deck before. Yes the flashing was redone. It wasn't even flashed at all before. The nails I used were from one of my customers. Its a customer that uses pressure treated lumber and at the peak of the residential hike where I live had 250 guys working for them. I asked my guy what nails I needed to build the deck and he handed me the nails guns, compressor and the nails they use for pressure treated lumber construction. Also the support beam through the center(underneath that runs parallel with the house is 2 2X8's. As far as the piers.....I attached a simpson bracket that is anchored with a 1/2"x4 1/2" wedge anchor. The old posts were attached to a piece of rebar sticking out of the pier that was doweled.

Like I said I am in sales. I am not a contractor. I have proven that. I also want to tell you that I am on commercial jobsites daily and sometimes residential jobsites. I deal with contractors issues daily. I read building plans daily. I deal with the contractors daily. I even deal with engineers from time to time. I got news for all of you. If you all think that everything built it done strictly to the plans, you are naive. The #1 issue I see is how a building is firestopped. The only new buildings in the area I live(St. Louis) that are properly firestopped are hospitals and thats about it. There are several municipalities that the fire marshals are very strict and for good measure. For those who don't know what firestop is, its the material between firewalls that prevents smoke from going through gaps and pentrations through fire walls. Contractors a high amount of time don't know how to install the stuff correctly. They also cut corners and use multiple products. I'd say 80% of the buildings I walk into aren't firestopped correctly. Don't forget that older building are even worse. The new codes have hit this on the head, but all the building that were built the old way aren't gutted and redone the right way because codes have changed.

The same goes for anchors(mechanical and epoxy) 90% of epoxy anchors I see installed are installed incorrectly. These epoxy anchors are usually used for bolting down exterior walls and also for doweling(which is reinforcement). What does that mean? Well an engineer approves a type of anchor for the job based on tested data. Well that data is tested on properly installed anchors. When an epoxy anchors isn't installed correctly, there is a 40% decrease of the holding value in that anchor. Scary isn't it? I could go on and on with this stuff.

My house is 40 years old. I'd bet most of how it was built isn't to current building codes. I guess my house is going to collapse. My upstairs is wired with aluminum wire and not copper(copper is in the recently finished basement). The deck was far from code complaint and built 20 years ago with no failure. I didn't plan on rebuilidng the whole deck. I planned on replacing the planks. When I noticed termite damage, rotting wood, and rotting posts I decided I needed to rebuild the whole thing. I had 30 people on the deck last October with these issues and it obviously didn't fail. Rarely will that happen again, and I am not to worried about me going out there with a few beers and my wife and worry about it collapsing.

As far as permits go....yeah its for safety. I want to add that my 40 year old house wasn't built to current building codes and is still standing. Obviously technology advances and codes become stricter as time goes along. Its for safety and reassurance. Its also to tax you on your property. The house already had a deck, so my house is assessed with the deck on it already. With the basement I talked to multiple realtors and every single one of the told me that finished basements are rarely built with permits and to now worry about it. I'd like to add that although I didn't get a permit(because it was a huge pain), I printed out the codes and abided by them as good as I could. I didn't do this with the deck. I

I don't ever plan on moving, but if I do I have no worries. I guess if I try selling it to an engineer then I will have someone busting my chops. Guess what though, I can sell my house to whomever I want. I do realize that building codes/permits have become a bit stricter in residential areas, especially in bigger cities. People have been finishing basement and buidling their own deck without permits for years. I am not saying its right, but I can't think of hearing of any issues. I have heard of deck failures locally. Every single one of them wasn't structurall failure. It was decks not properly attached to the houses. That is one area I paid strict detail to.

If I was as anal as most of you on here with what I see daily in my job.....I'd never step in a building with a roof again. I'd have to stay in a tent 24/7. I didn't do this intentionally. I seeked help from someone that has done this and the mistake I made was wanting to stick with using the piers I had. I trusted that advice and went with it. If I would have known about this site and more, I would have built the deck differently and went by the codes. Guess what guys, I have $7000 in the deck that is already built. I can't rip the thing apart and start over. With most of the advice I have been given, thats what I'd have to do. I honestly have no worries about the structure. My worries is that darn board sagging over time, and I know it will sag. The last deck did it so I know.

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Old 10-07-2009, 12:12 AM   #26
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Questions on a deck I just built.


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Well I came here with a simple question. Some of you have given me the simple answer and others have pretty much blasted me on here.
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Originally Posted by stearns86 View Post

Wouldnt have anything to do with a bit of an 'attitude problem' towards some constructive ciricism would it? You consistanly whined and complained about people pointing things out that were trying to help you.


Like I said I am in sales. I am not a contractor.
Well son, I am a contractor as well as having 20 years plus in sales. I can tell you one thing..from the contractor side..When someone knowlegable (like the other contractors trying to help you out) offer you advice, even if it isnt what you want to hear....take it in and learn from it. We are constantly learning from each other and need to be open minded.

From a Sales and Sales Mgmnt experience...I can tell you seem to be very critical and somewhat sensitive to people offering their opinion. In Sales being closed minded and not open to suggestion is a KILLER. Especially when you, yourself are blasting the people who you sell to...not to smart.



My house is 40 years old. I'd bet most of how it was built isn't to current building codes. I guess my house is going to collapse. My upstairs is wired with aluminum wire and not copper

Just another example of a feeble attempt at sarcasm that clearly shows your ignorance to what you are talking about......nothing wrong with aluminum wiring if it is done properly...you just dont mix copper and alum for eg.

With the basement I talked to multiple realtors and every single one of the told me that finished basements are rarely built with permits and to now worry about it.

It seems you put way too much weight in these 'professional' that tell you things that you would like to hear, but may not be the proper or even right route for you to go. Where I am from if you sell a house that has had work done in it without proper permits, you can get into alot of trouble. I would assume a professional would let you know about that. Possibly it is not an issue where you are from, but if getting permits is such a pain in thess like you menioned, I would assume it is a big deal. Where I am from, permits are actually fairly easy to get yet they make a big deal out of things not being permitted that need to be.


If I was as anal as most of you on here with what I see daily in my job.....I'd never step in a building with a roof again. I'd have to stay in a tent 24/7.

Again another feeble attempt at sarcasm directed to those who truly were trying to help you....sad

Guess what guys, I have $7000 in the deck that is already built. I can't rip the thing apart and start over. With most of the advice I have been given, thats what I'd have to do. I honestly have no worries about the structure. My worries is that darn board sagging over time, and I know it will sag. The last deck did it so I know.


You obviously were not paying much attention to the advice given...re-read the advice given. I cannot find to many posts telling you to rip the whole deck down and start over.

I am not trying to be an ahole or anything, I am just basically venting a bit because I find it a little ironic and irritating that these people are trying to give you advice (whom I might add you asked for.....) and you basically complained about it and pretty much threw it back in their face.

People take pride in helping others in need.

If you dont want peoples help or ideas.....please dont ask for it. If you truly want or need help and advice please accept it and dont throw it back.

That all being said, I hope your deck turns out for you and good luck on your future projects.

Last edited by rahfiki; 10-07-2009 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:24 AM   #27
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[/b]

You obviously were not paying much attention to the advice given...re-read the advice given. I cannot find to many posts telling you to rip the whole deck down and start over.

I am not trying to be an ahole or anything, I am just basically venting a bit because I find it a little ironic and irritating that these people are trying to give you advice (whom I might add you asked for.....) and you basically complained about it and pretty much threw it back in their face.

People take pride in helping others in need.

If you dont want peoples help or ideas.....please dont ask for it. If you truly want or need help and advice please accept it and dont throw it back.

That all being said, I hope your deck turns out for you and good luck on your future projects.
That post wasn't directed towards you. Honeslty you were a big help. The problem with any forum is conflicting information. I appreciate your help. You were never rude to me. I am not upset, but frustrated.

This project went from replacing the planks, to ripping the whole deck apart and rebuilding it. To build a deck like what I built around here would cost $20,000 to $25,000. My in laws had one built for $10,000 last fall and its half my size. Most quotes they were getting were over $15,000. I don't have the money to do that, so thats why I got the help of some friends(I didn't build this myself) and went at it. I asked for a simple fix. People like yourself offered that advice. Then others offered other advice and basically told me was built all wrong.

Thanks again for your help. I apologize if I pissed you off. I apologize also with my "terminolgy". Its off and that has made it difficult for you guys to help me and even tougher for me to figure out what you are trying to help me with.

My "union carpernter buddy" that told me how to put this together is coming over and we are going to figure out a solution with suggestions such as yours. I don't disagree that just because he is a "union carpenter" that he is going to build everything to code. I do believe that a guy that has been buidling for quite some time would have the knowledge of how to build something fairly simple(for someone like him) as a deck.

I explained the issues I had concerns about. He offered to come over and help me fix it and make it right. He realizes there are some issues with the deck that can be fixed fairly simply. I just figured I'd get some outside advice. You are like me. I have general contractor and engineers jumping in on this. Isn't there a professional contractors forum for them?

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Old 10-07-2009, 12:40 AM   #28
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Questions on a deck I just built.




Its all good. Dont worry I didnt think it was directed at me but even if it was, I would not have taken it personally, I just felt I had to defend the nice guys giving advice

I have had projects that started with something small, then turned into something big and I know how frustrating it can be....especially when others are telling you ...well if you only did this at the start ARGGGGH... so I hear ya..

I think once your friend gets there and you bounce a few of these ideas off him, you should have problem fixed in no time..........BUT REMEMBER the most IMPORTANT thing when he is there..........BEER!

cheers
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:07 AM   #29
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Its all good. Dont worry I didnt think it was directed at me but even if it was, I would not have taken it personally, I just felt I had to defend the nice guys giving advice

I have had projects that started with something small, then turned into something big and I know how frustrating it can be....especially when others are telling you ...well if you only did this at the start ARGGGGH... so I hear ya..

I think once your friend gets there and you bounce a few of these ideas off him, you should have problem fixed in no time..........BUT REMEMBER the most IMPORTANT thing when he is there..........BEER!

cheers
I honestly was never worried about it. I had concern with the board sagging like it did on the old deck, and that was it. Obviously if I fix this issue now, then I won't have to worry about it. This project was on a short time line and then was interrupted by the birth of my son 3 1/2 weeks early.

The beer will be flowing my friend. If I didn't feel confident in my buddies work, I obviously wouldn't have taken his advice. Like I said, he isn't perfect and it won't be 100% to a building code, but it will be "safe" in my eyes. If I were to have done this all over again I'd have printed the building code and spent some more money and put more posts and such as was suggested by the computer print out from the home depot. Although I didn't have a permit for my basement, I printed out the building code on it and followed it as closely as I could.

The whole code and do it exactly like the book frustrated me because I see corners cut daily with my job. Techonolgy is a beautiful thing, but IMO it causes people to overreact. My son is a perfect example. My wifes stupid doctor kept having all these tests run on us to check to make sure our son didn't have any issues. If we found something out we were going to have the baby, so it was a waste of money and alls it did is worry my wife. 31 years ago when I was born, they didn't have ultrasounds and all these tests. Guess what plenty of people in my generation were born healthy.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:19 AM   #30
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Questions on a deck I just built.


I also want to add that I did get pissy in regards to some of the posts on here and I apologize. I just think some of you are a little naive to how stuff is constructed, not only in residential but in commercial also.

I never have claimed to be some professional contractor. Some of the posts "blasting me" were only tryint to help and I understand.

Whether I agree or not, I appreciate all the help. In the end I need a simple fix. I can't take this deck apart and do what some of you are suggesting. Its too late for that. I understand its a risk with no permits and such if I ever sell the house. Its too late, and I will cross that bridge if I get there. We don't plan on ever moving. Yeah, that could change but there is a small chance of that.

Thanks

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