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Old 04-01-2011, 06:49 PM   #16
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pocket hole jointery and cabinet screws for framing


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Hi everyone, I have mixed experience since I could walk basically with building things.
You've probably got the message by now. The lesson to be learned is that a little knowledge/experience is dangerous. It's one thing if your cabinet door falls off, another thing completely in your structure fails!
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Old 04-02-2011, 01:29 AM   #17
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pocket hole jointery and cabinet screws for framing


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Screws are good for holding things tight but have poor shear strength.
I wouldn't characterize it as "poor" shear strength. Yes, screwed joints do have less shear strength than nailed joints with the same number of similarly sized nails, but the difference isn't huge. I've seen the data in the USDA's Wood Engineering Handbook. Don't have the numbers handy at the moment, but it wasn't like nails had twice as much shear strength, or even 50% more.
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:33 PM   #18
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I wouldn't characterize it as "poor" shear strength. Yes, screwed joints do have less shear strength than nailed joints with the same number of similarly sized nails, but the difference isn't huge. I've seen the data in the USDA's Wood Engineering Handbook. Don't have the numbers handy at the moment, but it wasn't like nails had twice as much shear strength, or even 50% more.
If you watch Holmes on Holmes you will notice his crew screws together all of the framing they construct. I've heard the nail vs screw argument and I'd never argue that screws have equal or better shear strength but I do wonder if screws are considered to have sufficient shear strength. Anybody?
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:58 PM   #19
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screws have better pull out resistance,,, nails have shear strength its proven.. screws are made of hardened steel which will snap off under any kind of load

you want proof do this task, take 2 screws 3- 1/2" long drive them through a peice of 2x and then wack the end of the screw downward with a hammer, the screw will break off or hook onto it and try to pull it through the wood... now do the same thiing with a spike.. the nail will bend but it wont break.. this is why screws arent accepted by code for framing

yes holmes does use screws to frame but have you noticed what 90% of the things hes framing with screws are partition walls,, not headers not beams or roofs.. when he is full out framing he actually has nailers in use... some things holmes does are correct, some are not.. framing with screws isnt one of the good things... not only are they weaker its a much more expensive fastener and it takes far longer to drive 100 screws than it does to shoot 100 spikes from a framing gun

holmes goes on about certification yet he isnt certified as a carpenter, he was supposed to go through apprenticeship and write the interprovincial exam in 2008, how do i know this. he was supposed to be in my class, he was a no show
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:22 PM   #20
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Key word here is "DON'T"
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Old 12-01-2011, 08:49 PM   #21
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im pretty sure i remember reading in the instruction papers for my kreg jig that says, not for structural purposes..

also the simpson strong tie screws are engineered specifically for the purpose of fastening hangers and structural components there made of the same gauge metal as hanger nails. the original design for these were for areas with seismic activity if memory serves corret. less likely to pull out under stress which nails are more likely to do . their not whats hes wanting to use.. this guy is wanting to use pocket hole screws which are the exact same gauge shanks as regular wood screws..
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Old 12-01-2011, 09:02 PM   #22
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Look on the Strong Tie web site, it says do not use screws in joist hangers, only hanger nails.
Any time there's a right angle in anything it's a possible fracture point from shear load.
A screw is full of angles.
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Old 12-02-2011, 10:58 PM   #23
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Or a special SD or SDS screw in a fastener: http://www.strongtie.com/products/co...-loadrated.asp

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Old 12-03-2011, 10:26 AM   #24
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precisely,, its a screw thats made specifically for structuaral purposes., made of stronger steel
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:04 AM   #25
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That is just too much to read for me, let me ask you a question, which will bend and which will break, nail vs pocket hole screws? I
I'll take a 4 inch #10 screw over a #4 nail any day.

Screws have a bad rap, and I'm sure some of it is well deserved. But try this experiment:

Start with a post. Maybe a phone pole. Take a modern 2x4 stud and put four 3" drywall screws into it on 2 inch centers into the pole in a square pattern. Now use your choice of tools: hammers or pry bars. Remove the 2x4. In the cases where I've done this the wood has always failed before the screws. If you have an oak or an old Southern Yellow Pine 2x4 it's a different story.

The cases where I've been able to make the screws fail is where there is for instance one screw holding two long boards together and I've used the leverage of the boards. In our new house I was trying to knock a board loose from a joist. It was 1x12, and I could hold the long end, and beat on the end near the joist with a 4 pound hammer. The board shattered and finally I got a light and realized it was up with #6 drywall screws. #10 nails would have come out without destroying the board.

All that said, the OP is obviously going in a bad place -- there's no way you can safely butt joint wood with screws.
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Old 12-06-2011, 07:04 PM   #26
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the point your trying to make doesnt really prove anything. i can beat a peice of 2x4 into peices with a 4lb hammer without it being fastened... its called gunnage lumber when laying floor sheathing.. on a 9200 sq ft custom i framed we wasted about 10 2x4's just laying sheathing..

also just because your using a light sledge to beat that 2x4 its doesnt accoutn for how hard your swinging it. gun spikes applied in a sinch nailing pattern will hold when laminating.

plus code clearly states that spikes and nails must be used, unless otherwise noted by a engineer
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:58 PM   #27
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Well, hold on there buckaroos. Kreg has entered the framing market. At least a little bit. While they are not yet ready to suggest hanging joists, they have released a new jig that uses 2-1/2 inch #14 screws. These, they claim, are suitable for, at least, railing construction. You can go to their website and download shear test results for this product joining handrails to posts. If I read the report correctly, it looked like two screws joining 2-by material yielded a connection shear strength exceeding 500lb in ACQ lumber.

I plan on installing a handrail for a deck shortly using this method.

It seems like they would have the strength to hang shorter joists, but I'll wait for the codes people to work that out. I'd like to know if anyone knows why it would not work though, just out of curiosity.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:02 PM   #28
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Older Balloon framed homes with full dimension lumber always had the ends of the joists supported by ledger boards which were let in to the the studs which ran all the way to the attic. I don't know what you are talking about the ends of joists just being nailed. That is simply not correct.

Like the others said, you need to read up on proper techniques. The weak link in the connection is not the tensile strength of the nail or screw, it is the woods ability to resist the force placed on the very small cross section of the nail or screw. That's why split ring connectors were invented for trusses. That is also why peoples decks fall down. They don't realize that they are depending on the relatively small bearing area on the shaft of a bolt, and the wood band joist fails by cracking right down the bolt line. They just don't get it.
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Last edited by jagans; 03-07-2013 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:31 PM   #29
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I would have thought pocket screws would be fine, assuming you used an adequate number of them.

Are screws inherently bad, or do you just need a bunch of them?
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:17 PM   #30
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using screws for a handrail is completely different from toe screwing a joist to a beam.. they encounter totally different forces and the amount placed on them...

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