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Old 07-15-2012, 08:51 PM   #16
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Mahogany Door Jamb - What nails and where?


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Thanks. This is all really beginning to make sense for me. I think I will likely try using screws instead of nails on the first door to secure the jambs so that if I mistake I can remove them easily.

Would 2" x 18ga then be enough through the casing into the jamb given I am only fastening the jambs along the centreline of the doorstop or do I need 16ga? Also, would 2-1/2" x 18ga be enough through the casing and drywall into the stud?

I also find it odd that shims don't ever seem to be specified at the top and bottom of the hinge and shim jambs. What keeps them from moving there? Is it because the movement will occur at the hinges and the casing will stop any movement at the top and bottom where there are no shims?

Your gauge of nails at 16 or 18 will be ok. They just need to be long enough to give you good purchase into the studs.

By all means shim both sides of the side jambs at the head. I shim the center of the jamb head last to get a solid and secure reveal between the jamb and the top of the door.You should shim the strike side bottom as well. The reason it's not really needed on the bottom of the hinge side is that you already have shims at the bottom hinge fairly close to the bottom, but if it makes you feel better shim away. You can't have too many shims, but it can lead to lots of nail holes. Shim behind the strike plate area as well.

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Old 07-15-2012, 09:23 PM   #17
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Mahogany Door Jamb - What nails and where?


Actually I just realized you can't get 2-1/2" 18ga finish nails so I would have to use 2" (and the Bostitch gun I just bought does up to 2"). But, since that would only leave 2" - 7/8" - 1/2" = 5/8" into the stud where the casing meets the drywall I guess I will have to use 2-1/2" 16ga there with it's bigger holes to fill. Is that right?
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Old 07-16-2012, 12:28 AM   #18
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Mahogany Door Jamb - What nails and where?


5/8" into the stud is ok for the casing. That will be fine.
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Old 07-16-2012, 10:27 AM   #19
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Mahogany Door Jamb - What nails and where?


I am surprised that 5/8" would be enough, but will try that. I am doing a trial run in the next couple days of my first door and a few things came up when I was going through the list of instructions I prepared for myself, if I can further indulge you (you've been great at answering my questions):

A. When I hang the door on the jamb while it is on the work bench it seems that I should install a temporary door stop about 6" shorter than the jamb on each jamb rather than just the strike side. Otherwise, I have to place some wood under the hinge side of the door in order to hold that side up too while I install the hinges.So, it seems seems to me installing a temporary stop on the hinge side too is a better method. How do you prop up the door while you are installing the hinges? In any event, if just one or two, I'd make a jig so that the door stop was installed exactly the same distance from the jamb face along its length on each jamb door assembly.

B. It seems some apply a very small thin bead of wood glue to the jamb before nailing the casing. This seems like a good idea (and I am not worried about someone having to be called back to disassemble the work and having to deal with this tight connection since I am doing all the work and am going to make sure it is right). And you also recommended gluing the mitre joints. But I understand that if any glue gets onto the mahogany face that has to be finished it will be very difficult to finish properly. Would you recommended gluing the casing too? Would the glue be hard to remove if it got on to the mahogany? Could I not just sand it off? Is there a glue that is recommended or just to use carpenter's wood glue? I do have some gorilla glue that really holds well, but tends to expand quite a bit so one has to be really careful not to apply very much (perhaps with a toothpick!).

C. At what point do I drill the cylinder lock hole? I was thinking it might be easier to drill it perpendicular to the door face before it is installed into the rough opening but maybe not. To properly position the strike plate hole I was going to close the door, shoot a horizontal laser beam on the centreline of the cylinder lock hole, then open the door and mark the centreline of the strike plate hole where the laser beam strikes the jamb.

Last edited by Toronto; 07-16-2012 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:21 PM   #20
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Mahogany Door Jamb - What nails and where?


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Originally Posted by Toronto View Post
I am surprised that 5/8" would be enough, but will try that. I am doing a trial run in the next couple days of my first door and a few things came up when I was going through the list of instructions I prepared for myself, if I can further indulge you (you've been great at answering my questions):

A. When I hang the door on the jamb while it is on the work bench it seems that I should install a temporary door stop about 6" shorter than the jamb on each jamb rather than just the strike side. Otherwise, I have to place some wood under the hinge side of the door in order to hold that side up too while I install the hinges.So, it seems seems to me installing a temporary stop on the hinge side too is a better method. How do you prop up the door while you are installing the hinges? In any event, if just one or two, I'd make a jig so that the door stop was installed exactly the same distance from the jamb face along its length on each jamb door assembly.

B. It seems some apply a very small thin bead of wood glue to the jamb before nailing the casing. This seems like a good idea (and I am not worried about someone having to be called back to disassemble the work and having to deal with this tight connection since I am doing all the work and am going to make sure it is right). And you also recommended gluing the mitre joints. But I understand that if any glue gets onto the mahogany face that has to be finished it will be very difficult to finish properly. Would you recommended gluing the casing too? Would the glue be hard to remove if it got on to the mahogany? Could I not just sand it off? Is there a glue that is recommended or just to use carpenter's wood glue? I do have some gorilla glue that really holds well, but tends to expand quite a bit so one has to be really careful not to apply very much (perhaps with a toothpick!).

C. At what point do I drill the cylinder lock hole? I was thinking it might be easier to drill it perpendicular to the door face before it is installed into the rough opening but maybe not. To properly position the strike plate hole I was going to close the door, shoot a horizontal laser beam on the centreline of the cylinder lock hole, then open the door and mark the centreline of the strike plate hole where the laser beam strikes the jamb.

5/8" is enough for the casing as all it is doing is holding the casing onto the wall. Obviously it also keeps the jamb secure to some degree as well. If you glue the miters use carpenters glue and try not to use too much so that it oozes out. If it does get on the casing face have a moist rag handy to wipe off the excess. Make sure you get it ALL off. Once dry you can lightly sand as well. I would not use Gorilla glue on the miters because it will be harder to remove any excess.

The only reason I'm telling you to temporarily nail on a door stop six inches too short is because you don't want nail holes to show. If I were doing it myself I would nail off the jamb with the permanent stop on and fill the nail holes with a good matching putty that takes the stain or matches well in color. If you are mortising the hinges into the jamb and door yourself you'll need a mortising jig if you are doing it with a router. The mortise on the jamb needs to be positioned so that a 1/8" reveal is left at the head between the top of the door and the jamb. When you use a jig you router the jamb and door separately. Then put the jamb together (head and legs). Pull the pin out of the hinges and install each half on the jamb and door for all three hinges. Lean the jamb up against a wall and hang the door on the hinges and insert the pins. Now you have your door in the jamb and you are making gravity work for you instead of against you. This is where having the strike side door stop on keeps the door from swinging through.

DO NOT install the hinge side door stop until the door has been secured in the opening. The hinge side door stop needs to be 1/8" away from the door surface so the door does not bind on the stop. The stop on the hinge side does not stop the door. It stops the light from showing through the hinge side of the jamb. The strike side stop and head stop do all the work. The head stop will gradually leave the surface of the door as it lines up with the hinge side stop.

The bore for the doorknob can be done before or after hanging the door in the opening. I like to do it before so that I have a place to hold onto to open and close the door while installing it in the opening. You will also need to mortise out the door for the latch, and the jamb for the strike plate. Jigs are made for these as well but you can do it with a sharp chisel the old school way. Special door boring jigs are made that clamp onto the door and have there own bits that you then chuck up in your 1/2" drill motor and bore out the door. The same jig has a bit that bores the latch hole as well. These tools are all pro door hanging tools and will cost big bucks. You may be able to rent them at a big box store. If you have not ordered your doors and jambs yet I would suggest that you order them pre-bored. The same goes for the jambs. In fact you can order your doors pre-hung in the jambs and eliminate all the work. Usually for a very good price compared to the amount of time you will spend doing it yourself without the proper tools. You sound as if you already have your doors and jamb stock so this probably is not an option. You can do it.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:55 PM   #21
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Mahogany Door Jamb - What nails and where?


Oh i thought the door was installed with the jambs flat on the bench as I had in my own instructions above.

I have jambs, casings, doorstops and doors
already. They came from 2 separate places as one company only does windows, sliding doors, cabinets and other millwork, but not slab doors and the other company does slab doors but not jambs, etc. But that's a good thing to note for next time. It's a bit tougher with a contemporary home like mine to find suppliers.

I thought I might make my own jig for the hinges as I saw in a video. I will drill the cylinder hole first so I have something to grab into when installing the door. I do have a jig that clamps onto the door to drill the cylinder hole and latch hole. I bought it at Home Depot. It's made of plastic and cost about $45 I think which I didn't think was that expensive. Is there a better one I should get? I don't mind spending a little $ as I am saving so much doing this myself.

OMG I only had 1 q this time!
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:44 PM   #22
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Mahogany Door Jamb - What nails and where?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto View Post
Oh i thought the door was installed with the jambs flat on the bench as I had in my own instructions above.

I have jambs, casings, doorstops and doors
already. They came from 2 separate places as one company only does windows, sliding doors, cabinets and other millwork, but not slab doors and the other company does slab doors but not jambs, etc. But that's a good thing to note for next time. It's a bit tougher with a contemporary home like mine to find suppliers.

I thought I might make my own jig for the hinges as I saw in a video. I will drill the cylinder hole first so I have something to grab into when installing the door. I do have a jig that clamps onto the door to drill the cylinder hole and latch hole. I bought it at Home Depot. It's made of plastic and cost about $45 I think which I didn't think was that expensive. Is there a better one I should get? I don't mind spending a little $ as I am saving so much doing this myself.

OMG I only had 1 q this time!

LOL!

Like they say "the only stupid question is the one you don"t ask".

That was a good call getting the inexpensive boring jig. I can't imagine it would hold up for long under heavy use, but it should work fine for your purposes. I have an old school adjustable aluminum boring jig with carbide tipped cutting blades that I've been using since the early eighties. Still works great.

You can make your own mortising jigs. I've made plenty over the years.
Sounds like you definitely have the will, so the way will follow!

If those doors are on the heavy side you might want to have someone spot you while your standing them up until you get them shot off with a few nails. They are a little awkward to move around so take care.
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Old 07-16-2012, 05:12 PM   #23
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Mahogany Door Jamb - What nails and where?


I'll likely get someone to help me lift the door assemblies into place as they are a bit on the heavy side. I only have 8 swing doors and a set of french doors to install (but the french doors have glass insets which I'll install after so the doors will be very light). I'm figuring on tackling one door per day. I'm sure professional trim carpenters can do way more.

I also have 4 sliding doors (with glass insets) and 2 solid core doors to install and I guess that will be a whole new learning experience (a way easier one I suspect). I will investigate that once I get the swing doors installed. Of course there are the baseboards which are pretty easy and a few other custom pieces of trim, but no crown moulding at all as it's a contemporary design.

One question I just realized you did not answer is whether I should glue the casing to the jamb (using carpenters glue, if so, I suspect).

Also, you mentioned that the hinge door stop should be 1/8" back from the back of the door. I take it the strike door stop is set back from the face of the jamb by exactly the door thickness and not slightly more? (I have no paint to account for, just the clear coat finish). And, as you mentioned the head door stop is in line with the strike door stop and then moves away from the door to meet the hinge door stop? If I am correct then I take it that means I need to bevel the head door stop just slightly on each end to accomodate the slight angle such that the head door stop is flush against each jamb?

Lastly, my finish is a clear coat. I heard that the best way to make sure the nail holes match the surrounding wood well is to use wood glue mixed with the sapele sawdust. Actually my elderly Mother told me today that a carpenter told her that 30 years ago when they built their house. What do you think?

Last edited by Toronto; 07-16-2012 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:37 PM   #24
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Mahogany Door Jamb - What nails and where?


You'll be giving me door hanging tips by the time your done with all of those.

Your strike side stop should be held back from the jamb edge by the thickness of the door so that the door is flush with the jamb leg.

No need to glue the casing onto the jamb. It could be messy too. With a clear coat only you can't use any caulk so be sure your casing is tight against the jamb.

No need to bevel the head stop. The difference is so slight it is not needed. I like to leave 1/8" reveal on the hinge side so that the door will not bind on it, but you could make that a small 1/8" since it's clear coat only.

You can make a mixture of fine saw dust and glue to fill the nail holes. They actually make stainable wood glue. Experiment with this on some scrap pieces first if you have any. You will need to sand the filled hole lightly (220 grit), and try not to get too much of the glue bearing mixture on the wood or it will show when you apply the clear coat. Some painters fill the nail holes on clear coated wood after finish with colored putty or crayon type fillers, but I think it shows more because it doesn't have the same sheen as the rest of the wood. They do this to get around the "halo" effect that can show around a filled nail hole if glue or oils from the filler are not completely removed before finishing.

Practice makes perfect.

Last edited by Wallace49; 07-16-2012 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 07-17-2012, 01:56 PM   #25
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Mahogany Door Jamb - What nails and where?


Thanks for all your help. You've been great. I now have a detailed instruction sheet with 36 steps. I'll post a few pics once I get it done.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:08 PM   #26
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Mahogany Door Jamb - What nails and where?


Well I guess I do have a couple more questions! I received my 4-1/2" architectural hinges today. The hinges were supplied with 4 x 1-1/4" long screws and 4 x 1/2" long screws. Which screws go in which holes? Would the longer screws go in the very top and very bottom holes and the shorter screws in between?

Also, with this sapele mahogany wood that I am going to be installing these hinges into, I take it I should predrill the holes. If so, what drill bit diameter should I use? From what I can tell these seem to be #10 screws. Since this mahogany is a hardwood I am thinking the drill bit size should be the thickness of the shaft without the threads sticking out, so about 1/8". Would that be right?

Btw, I ended up getting a 4-1/2" x 4" Hager clone hinge that came highly recommended for $10 CDN each and the contemporary Emtek 'Helios' lever with 'CF Mechanism'. The CF Mechanism allows for a smaller turn radius for the lever and no exposed screw holes but was a $20 upgrade and I paid $110 CDN each. Both hinge and lever are in a satin nickel finish.

EDIT: I just realized there are 24 long and 24 short screws per package of 3 hinges so I guess I use the long screws for these 1-3/4" thick solid core doors I have. When does one use the 1/2" screws? For 1-1/4" hollow core doors? EDIT AGAIN: I found out the short screws are actually machine screws for use in in metal doors, so I will not be using them, but the longer ones.


Last edited by Toronto; 07-28-2012 at 08:28 PM.
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