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Old 11-18-2011, 08:58 AM   #31
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Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling


After seeing your layout in the other thread, I might be inclined to agree and say some blocking may be useful around your fan. It will be useful for you to overlay the ceiling joist layout on that drawing to map out your strategy no matter what it may be.

A 5/16" x 4 1/2" lag will prove to have all the up lifting power you may need. But "crushing the drywall" is some thing that will not happen no matter your set up. I may be misunderstanding you there.

If your textured ceiling is all over the place as bad as you describe, you are in for your biggest headache when you install your crown. If you are only talking an 1/8" to 1/4" bump at any one section of crown, you can over come that. If its more we can talk about alternatives.

This is an ambitious project, even for someone with years of experience. You do seem to have an aptitude for the work and your enthusiasm is contagious. So I'm interested in tracking your progress and offering advise where you ask for it. This looks like fun.

What do you think are the initial steps in getting this project rolling once you have settled on a layout?

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Old 11-18-2011, 03:21 PM   #32
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Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling


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Originally Posted by Augie Dog View Post
I'll jump in kinda late.

Depending upon the grid of your detail, I don't think the whole all thread detail is necessary. If your grid is less that 6' or so, I don't think it is at all needed.

I would run the 2x4 perpendicular to the joists first and continuous. Then lube up the top side of the short sections with construction adhesive and pinch nail them to the drywall and toe screw the ends to the long 2x4.

Once you build the box beam and tie the whole thing together, those short sections will be very ridged and there is no chance they will sag under their own weight.

You may have already committed yourself to this bolting detail and there is no harm in doing it but sometimes the easy way is hard enough.
I agree with this method
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Old 11-18-2011, 06:41 PM   #33
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Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling


Mostly it's the layout and points I'd be fastening it at that's holding me up. I know that with this project, once I punch the first hole, there's no turning back. I can't repair the texture like I could with a regular textured drywall.

I've always hated starting a project without a full plan.

The dips aren't worse than 1/4" over 1 ft that I can find preliminarily. It seems fairly average for a ceiling. I'll post an image shortly.
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Old 11-18-2011, 06:56 PM   #34
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Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling


This is as clear as I could get it. And in one of the worst spots I could find, which isn't bad at all.

Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling-326.jpg
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:02 PM   #35
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Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling


Ok, so we can assume that the ceiling is flat enough to accept the crown molding.

If you could work on overlaying the joists on the layout you are happy with, I think we could have a discussion about a backing strategy.

Since you are the type that sees the benefit in planning and drawings, May I suggest you post a cross section of your typical beam and crown section?

Then there are the construction methods and procedures that are worth kicking around.

If you like I can get some of my buddies from Contractor Talk (A sister site to this one) to stop in and lend a few words. If you can pull together those two sketches first they will have more useful input.

Like I said, this is quite an undertaking. If you want the help of some very qualified professionals, I may be able to pull a few over to help you.
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:31 PM   #36
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Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling


Hmmm. I thought I'd posted a picture of a cross section, but suppose not. Let me throw together some drawings, and I'll be back shortly.
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:40 PM   #37
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Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling


Here ya go. The "south" wall of the room is the original edge of the house, and the spot where every layout seems to use as the origin (footings, joists, studs, etc).

Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling-327.jpg

I put them at 24" OC, which is as close as I can give you without manually measuring each to be more accurate. I also compensated the first joist back " for the sheetrock.
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:49 AM   #38
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Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling


That's an ambitious design, but I have to say, you are way over-thinking this with threaded rod, IMO.

I'd say that 4-5 hours is ample time to locate key areas, cut some blocking and install from above.

With this method, you lay out the grid, locate the corners with screws or nails from below, move into the attic and install blocking where necessary.

With the threaded rod, it would seem that the grid would have to be installed below initially (to what?), drilled through to locate above, blocking set above the joists, drilled through either from above or below, threaded rod dropped down from above, then nutted together from below, possibly requiring another person up top to keep the rod from turning, only to realize later that you over-tightened, distorting the reasonably flat ceiling. Not to mention, ruining the area above by lacing blocking above the joist space with nuts sticking up everywhere.

IMO, removing the insulation, setting the blocking, re-insulating and being able to set the gridwork without tying up an extra man in the attic is money in the bank. One man job after laying out the grid.

The threaded rod concept would be worth doing if the ceiling were spray foamed, but not in any other scenario, IMO.
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:02 AM   #39
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Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling


Gus (Augie) has asked me to come give a hand to the project.

The last picture you have posted, yeppers...you have a project and a half

Sorry, I haven't read your last posts to see what you have for tools. I see a table saw....how about a decent miter saw? You have some inside miters you might want to adjust a little. A dedicated high end trim guy will have to make the utmost of his skills work to get the miters perfect.

I'm assuming you have a dxf file? Can you post that?

I read what Gus mentioned about construction adhesive and I agree. Use PL premium. You can get it at HD. That will permanently bond. It won't come down. You have short enough pieces you can most definitely face nail and toe nail the parallel parts and walk away with no worries when it cures.

I have also talked with Tom before and his method is the standard what I do. I usually have a double 2x cross lapping, then apply sides and bottom though.

Your initial layout on the ceiling is going to be critical with that design. The way I would start this is snapping lines from one end to the other. It's going to be noticeable if you are not in alignment. I hope you were planning on repainting the flat part of the ceiling.

Certainly your block method will work nice, but I honestly don't feel that it is necessary. You will have direct nailing into the perpendicular members (I would glue these as well) and lap the second layer of 2x. It won't move, I assure you.

You don't happen to have a laser do you?
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:51 AM   #40
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Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling


No laser, sorry. The last one I bought wasn't worth the materials it was made from and promptly was returned to the store. A miter saw is something I'm actively looking for deals on used, but it's taking time to locate a dual-bevel model at a price I like. In the meantime I have a miter box, though I wouldn't be caught dead trying to cut crown on it.

I can modify the layout within reason. Note that the ceiling fan circles indicate the blade tip path for 52", 60" and 70" fans. If I expanded the octagon maybe 8", I could probably get a portion of the layout to fall on the joists. But as you said, the runs are probably short enough to just be supported on each end without sagging.

Blocking from above was the original idea before I started this post, but I was looking for an easier way. Doesn't look like it exists in this situation! I feel confident I could lay out and block effectively. My main concern with blocking was that I might damage the drywall clumsily either by nailing or by stepping on it, as I don't have a catwalk up there (or a way to make one because I can't get sheet materials past the fire break door). Indeed, it would be a pain in the arse to do solo, though. I'd have to drill holes to locate from above, and without a helper locating them would be ridiculously difficult under the fiberglass bats and cellulose. Admittedly, the original plan was to hand nail everything, so a nailer changes the equation substantially...

*pulls hair* Arrrgh!

Also, the ceiling isn't painted. It's untextured drywall, smeared with two different colored layers of a stucco-quartz type texture. The color appears to be mixed in, because the bathroom walls are the same stuff, but in baby blue. (That's a whole 'nother project!) Nobody can tell me yet what the material is or where to get it, so I can't patch holes.

When you talk about the intersections, are you saying you run two 2x full length for the base and then lap them like one would when framing a double-top-plate? Or just doubled at the intersections?
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Old 11-19-2011, 11:10 AM   #41
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Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling


Yes, lap the corners. This would give you 3" thick coming down from the surface of the ceiling.

You should get a small tube of PL Premium and try it on a test piece of a 2x and scrap sheetrock. I assure you, you will be sold. No blocking necessary.

Guess I should ask if you have a finish nail gun first. This would be the ultimate application.

This tube exactly. Cleans up with mineral spirits. $5 at HD. Don't spill it on your floor though.

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Old 11-19-2011, 11:13 AM   #42
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I'm not doubting the glue, not by any means. Indeed, I have several tubes of a different brand (just checked the shed - Titebond "Pro Strength" construction adhesive). Rather, I'm doubting the tack that this wannabe-texture has to the sheetrock itself. Unless the adhesive is somehow penetrating?

Edit:
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Old 11-19-2011, 11:36 AM   #43
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The texture would have to be by itself falling off in huge pieces to be of any concern.
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Old 11-19-2011, 12:28 PM   #44
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Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thadius856 View Post
I've been working on new bead board wainscoting, chair rail, casing and base boards. Along the way, I picked up some crown, but before it got installed I decided that I want to coffer the ceiling. This obviously presents some problems because the layout I want doesn't line up with the joists.

My plan is to add some extra support from above via the unfinished, un-catwalked attic so that I can bolt the 2x4 base of the coffers against the drywall. Oh boy, I can't wait!

Would it be acceptable to fasten 2x4s on-face to the top sides of the joists and then use glue and long bolts through the drywall? Or must I add 24" blocks between the existing joists?

Also, is green fir acceptable in this application?
I don't know if you know who Gary Katz is but he has a great website with alot of information and good trim techniques. Go through his site and maybe you can get some ideas on other projects.

http://www.garymkatz.com/trim_techniques.html
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Old 11-19-2011, 12:40 PM   #45
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Logistics of Coffering an Existing Ceiling


If your so unsure about adhesive, put in a couple of molly bolts on the pieces that are parallel to the joists.
As loneframer said, you're overthinking this project.
Also, if that ceiling pic is your worst spot then you're in good shape. Just keep the moulding level and caulk the gap after. Looks like a detailed but fun project. Take your time and have fun with it

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