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Old 06-06-2013, 11:24 AM   #16
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how to support wall to replace bottom plate


thanks miamicuse. I am fixing the trusses right now and will get to the bottom plate next.

I described my solution to the truss in this thread Jim's Master Bathroom Remodeling (april 2013)

I wish I knew about Abatron an RotDoctor a day earlier. Last night I just filled the top part of the truss w/ Elmer wood filler. It is not intended for structural repair but for providing a flat surface for whaterver rest on top of it. I am supporting the truss from the bottom and gusset plywood as you described.

I haven't thought about clamping the 2 studs and that's sounds interesting. I would need to cut the ceiling drywall a bit though. i don't have access from the attic as it's to small to get to the edge of the roof.
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:23 PM   #17
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With things as bad as you're describing, and as bad looking as they are in the pictures, I would NOT do ANY work without having an engineer inspect it and come up with a plan.

This is your house you're talking about here, not usually a trivial investment. If you get this wrong you've not only wasted the time and money on the materials, you've potentially put the house at more risk.
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:47 PM   #18
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I didn't think this is a big deal. Most contractors told me they can fix it w/o an engineer involved. We are talking about 10 sft of damage. This is only supporting the subfloor. I think the worst case is a sagging floor. The roof should be properly supported once we have good wood in there again.

I agree that if I let the water leak continue that would compromise the house, but fixing the frame doesn't look like rocket science. There are only few options available to re-enforce the frame. I cannot imagine an engineer telling us about a totally different method that we haven't thought of.

I just need some hands on tips from the great people on this forum so I dont do unnecessary work

Thanks
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:01 PM   #19
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Yeah, well "contractors" say all sorts of things about their own competence while running down getting anyone else's opinion. So I'd take that with more than a grain or two of salt, so to speak.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:20 PM   #20
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how to support wall to replace bottom plate


Jemhunter has another thread going about the bad trusses---

I gave him some safe ways to fix the trusses----he has that underway.

As to replacing the rotted studs and bottom plate----
Does the ceiling show any signs of sagging due to the damage?

If not---it is acceptable to replace the plate in shorter sections.

Cut out about 32" worth---replace that much---sister in a new stud along side the old--adding blocking on top of the new plate (in between the new studs) will help stabilize the new work---
Then move to the next bad section.

If the ceiling has sagged---let us know---one if us will tell you how to build a 'jack wall' to lift up the ceiling---Mike----
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:07 PM   #21
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Hi Bill,

While some contractors are more knowledgeable than others, I believe, like most of us, they are professionals who are eager to do a good job for their customers. I always evaluate their proposal to see how it makes sense but I have to trust their intentions are honest. If I doubt of their intentions why should I trust a structural engineer?

I think they are good people and I would definitely go back to them if I feel something is beyond my ability. But reading and getting help from forums such as this one, I learned to do a lot of things around the house.

Cheers
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:12 PM   #22
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If the ceiling has sagged---let us know---one if us will tell you how to build a 'jack wall' to lift up the ceiling---Mike----
No noticeable sag from the ceiling. The wall top plate has less than 1/2" sag.

I was concerned if the wall would immediately sag more if I remove the bottom plate and cut off the bottom of the vertical studs. I don't think it would because the bottom plate and wood under is completely soft wood now and must not been providing much support but just wanted to double check w/ folks here.

Thanks
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:05 AM   #23
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you may be able to use some liquid wood epoxy (I mean the good ones like Rot Doctor or Abatron) that are formulated specifically for structural wood repair, I have used them and they do work and pour right into the damaged areas and let it penetrate and set into the voids. Next I would cut triangular shaped plywood and sandwich the trusses on both sides fastened with premium glue and 8d or 10d nails.

Just out of curiosity, if you climb up there and use a clamp to tighten the 1/2" space between the two 2x4s what happens, does the lower piece come up a little or the upper piece come down a little?
I have used Rot Doctor too and it is good stuff but expensive. If you go through a local lumber yard they may have more leverage with a truss manufacturer to offer a repair solution.

In the end you may be able to use a beam against the ceiling and under a jack at each end to avoid loading the floor in any one area. You might try replacing the shoe and stud ends with a 4"x6" or 8" and straps instead of blocks and sistering.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:16 AM   #24
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"Every persons knowledge is only as good as those they learned from." Even if I do things because I always do them that way does not mean I am right. And the best one is that even experts disagree.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:00 AM   #25
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The trick to doing anything like this is, if possible, alternate sections to replace... and to do it progressively.

In other words, working from one end, leave the first two studs (# 1 and #2) in place...
Remove stud #3...
Cut and replace the sole (floor) plate to within an inch of stud #2 and stud #4....
Replace stud #3 with a new stud... MAKE IT THE FULL AND PROPER LENGTH... even if you have to ENCOURAGE it to go into place with a small sledge.

Skip two more, and repeat the process... on across the wall.

Finish the wall, and then return to the beginning....
Pick a stud to take out, but leave the other one....
Go on across the wall again like this, taking one, leaving one, and replacing what plate you can.

Now go back to the beginning once more, and take out each remaining stud (and immediately replace it, and the plate) till you complete the wall.

You will end up with many pieces of floor plate, but that doesn't matter as long as you fastened them all down well. The plate does not have to be continuious.

No temp wall this way. No change of bearing location for the trusses, and no jacks. The whole wall gets replaced, and you never cause any serious problems with support.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:53 AM   #26
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how to support wall to replace bottom plate


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thanks miamicuse. I am fixing the trusses right now and will get to the bottom plate next.

I described my solution to the truss in this thread Jim's Master Bathroom Remodeling (april 2013)

I wish I knew about Abatron an RotDoctor a day earlier. Last night I just filled the top part of the truss w/ Elmer wood filler. It is not intended for structural repair but for providing a flat surface for whaterver rest on top of it. I am supporting the truss from the bottom and gusset plywood as you described.

I haven't thought about clamping the 2 studs and that's sounds interesting. I would need to cut the ceiling drywall a bit though. i don't have access from the attic as it's to small to get to the edge of the roof.
Elmer wood filler will not do anything other than making it "Look" more solid.

There are ways to repair these trusses like gusset plates but the top portion looks pretty rooted, and the beauty of those liquid wood is that they will flow into all the voids and crevices and bond the old swiss cheese like wood. They are VERY expensive. If you have already filled with wood filler you can still dig them out and use liquid wood, it's not too late. I am just thinking from the stand point of you having access now and never will again. If something happens at a later point your access would be from below, and it it VERY hard to administer that product under load and no top side access point. Even if you don't remove the wood filler, drilling a hole into the damaged area and let the liquid wood flow in would still help.

As for the 1/2" gap, my first inclination is to try the clamps to see how the two beams behave, and that is something that could be done without any stress added to the bad bottom plate. If by clamping the lower beam comes up a little, I would try to tighten the clamp and in doing so lifts the studs away from your bad bottom plate a 1/2". Do you cutting of the rotted studs, remove and replace the bottom plate, how much are you cutting off at the bottom? If you are cutting say 10" or so, instead of sistering, you can put in new short 10" tall studs on the new bottom plate, at the same locations, then put a horizontal piece all the way across them all, and attach the old studs to the top of that.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:14 PM   #27
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While some contractors are more knowledgeable than others, I believe, like most of us, they are professionals who are eager to do a good job for their customers. I always evaluate their proposal to see how it makes sense but I have to trust their intentions are honest. If I doubt of their intentions why should I trust a structural engineer?

I think they are good people and I would definitely go back to them if I feel something is beyond my ability. But reading and getting help from forums such as this one, I learned to do a lot of things around the house.
Hmmm, ok, so you're equating the knowledge of some random contractor with that of a structural engineer. And since you think the contractor was savvy enough to make you think he was right then there's no reason to seek help from a licensed structural engineer. Good luck with that kind of logic. It's wrong, hopefully it won't turn into 'dead wrong' when something collapses.

This has NOTHING to do with 'eagerness' or 'good intentions' and EVERYTHING to do with calculating what kind of a repair will best handle the loads and stresses the damage has caused to your house.

Sure, it's one thing to learn a lot from others. But it's also good to learn when it's important to seek the help of licensed engineers. This strikes me as one of those times. You're free to disagree, of course. Let's just hope your eagerness doesn't go horribly wrong.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:24 PM   #28
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Hmmm, ok, so you're equating the knowledge of some random contractor with that of a structural engineer. And since you think the contractor was savvy enough to make you think he was right then there's no reason to seek help from a licensed structural engineer. Good luck with that kind of logic. It's wrong, hopefully it won't turn into 'dead wrong' when something collapses.
I certainly think and expect a structural engineer to know more than a general contractor when it comes to truss repair. But to say

Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99;
Yeah, well "contractors" say all sorts of things about their own competence while running down getting anyone else's opinion.
I felt you are pointing out an attitude problem instead of a knowledge gap. If I operate from a basis of questioning their motives, it would then apply to any service provider.

I don't disagree it would be safer to consult a structural engineer. But to spend $5000 to get an opinion to repair 10 sft of damage seems an overkill.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:36 PM   #29
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The trick to doing anything like this is, if possible, alternate sections to replace... and to do it progressively.
Thanks for the recipe Willie. That sounds like a safe way to do this. One thing I haven't figured out is how to slide the new subfloor under the bottom plate.

I need to remove the bottom plate to get access to left over pieces of the subfloor along the edge. There are also nails coming down the the bottom (I can cut them). It seems I have to remove the whole 5 ft of the bottom plate first, put the subfloor, then nail the new bottom plate on top unless I can slide the new subfloor plywood w/ the current rotten plate in place.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:49 PM   #30
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Elmer wood filler will not do anything other than making it "Look" more solid.

There are ways to repair these trusses like gusset plates but the top portion looks pretty rooted, and the beauty of those liquid wood is that they will flow into all the voids and crevices and bond the old swiss cheese like wood. They are VERY expensive. If you have already filled with wood filler you can still dig them out and use liquid wood, it's not too late. I am just thinking from the stand point of you having access now and never will again. If something happens at a later point your access would be from below, and it it VERY hard to administer that product under load and no top side access point. Even if you don't remove the wood filler, drilling a hole into the damaged area and let the liquid wood flow in would still help.

As for the 1/2" gap, my first inclination is to try the clamps to see how the two beams behave, and that is something that could be done without any stress added to the bad bottom plate. If by clamping the lower beam comes up a little, I would try to tighten the clamp and in doing so lifts the studs away from your bad bottom plate a 1/2". Do you cutting of the rotted studs, remove and replace the bottom plate, how much are you cutting off at the bottom? If you are cutting say 10" or so, instead of sistering, you can put in new short 10" tall studs on the new bottom plate, at the same locations, then put a horizontal piece all the way across them all, and attach the old studs to the top of that.
You are absolutely right. Better do whatever we can now. I don't want to have to fix this once more.

What I did was excavate the brown rotten wood (is that what you call old swiss cheese?) from the truss, apply copper green, then fill the big hole w/ Elmer wood filler. This is not to restore strength but rather stop the rot from spreading and give a flat surface to the the truss. Then I covered the truss w/ metal stud. I am re-enforcing them to compensate for the reduced strength.

For the bottom plate, I need to replace about 5ft of it. There are 5 vertical studs with rotten bottom ends. I need to cut at least 6 to 12" of the bottom.
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