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Old 01-27-2011, 11:38 AM   #16
Mold!! Let's kill it!
 
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How bad is black mold?


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Another magic mold killer site!!!
Here's another for those interested. http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

And here's one with some useful info: http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0...083-1/abstract

In particular read the paragraph under conclusions. Also notice that Stachybotrys was one of the specific molds used for the test.

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Old 01-27-2011, 12:19 PM   #17
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How bad is black mold?


What is TSP? I have tried straight bleach over and over on a place and it just comes back over and over. We will be doing a complete bath make over soon and know for a fact there is mold behind some of the walls and there will be materials we don't wish to remove as it is structural.
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:50 PM   #18
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How bad is black mold?


TSP is Trisodium phosphate. It is a good first step cleaner, but not the product of choice for disinfecting. I would tend to believe that if you've bleached it effectively and have a recurring problem, then you need to look for a moisture issue. Common household molds need a few things to thrive: Mold spores, which are everywhere and impoissible to completely eliminate, moisture greater than 60%RH (usually the main culprit), temperatures in the range of 40-110 degrees, and a food source (any organic material, drywall paper or wood is perfect). The only one that is really controllable is moisture. Completely clean the area, wipe up all the debris, disinfect with a fungicide, dry the area thoroughly and seal the material. Kilz and Zinsser both make sealers that work. Test the area for moisture content. Areas like grout joints, corners of showers that get re-wetted tend to get reinfected and require ongoing cleaning. The best prevention is to keep things clean and dry. you want to be careful using straight bleach. You are breathing some nasty stuff.
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Old 01-27-2011, 01:41 PM   #19
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How bad is black mold?


M6 is right on the money across the board.

And about the bleach, it wasn't just EPA's recommendation. The first FEMA drops here after Katrina included drinking water, ice, and......drumroll......bleach.

Sealing after cleaning is the key to keep it from coming back. BIN is my "go to" on structural members.
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:10 PM   #20
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TSP is Trisodium phosphate. It is a good first step cleaner, but not the product of choice for disinfecting. I would tend to believe that if you've bleached it effectively and have a recurring problem, then you need to look for a moisture issue. Common household molds need a few things to thrive: Mold spores, which are everywhere and impoissible to completely eliminate, moisture greater than 60%RH (usually the main culprit), temperatures in the range of 40-110 degrees, and a food source (any organic material, drywall paper or wood is perfect). The only one that is really controllable is moisture. Completely clean the area, wipe up all the debris, disinfect with a fungicide, dry the area thoroughly and seal the material. Kilz and Zinsser both make sealers that work. Test the area for moisture content. Areas like grout joints, corners of showers that get re-wetted tend to get reinfected and require ongoing cleaning. The best prevention is to keep things clean and dry. you want to be careful using straight bleach. You are breathing some nasty stuff.
I do appreciate that information, that is what we will do. You are right about there still being moisture. You are also right about using straight bleach, that stuff is rough on the lungs. This is a relief to know, thanks for your time to let us know.
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Old 01-29-2011, 02:32 AM   #21
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I worked in the restoration industry for about four years, dealt with mold on a daily basis. It won't kill you, a lot of people think you need guys in white suits in. However, it's not healthy and you don't want it around. I've seen bleach used many times on the job for minor stuff. If the drywall/framing is rotted in any way you should replace it, think what you would do with your own house.
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Old 05-18-2011, 05:23 AM   #22
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There is a lot of BS out there telling people that bleach won't kill mold. Not sure who your mold guys are, but bleach is very effective at destroying mold. In fact it is one of the few products that will break molds down to their component parts. Most mold companies won't use bleach because of the compound gases that can form from sloppy use and it's also not good PR for a company charging you megabucks to show up on site with household bleach. TSP will certainly kill it. So will lemon juice and a whole host of other things. There are a lot of things that kill molds. The problem with bleach is that most people tend to overuse it. 10% is sufficient. Higher concentrations run the risk of creating chloroform compound gases that are more dangerous than the mold. You can certainly see if the area is clean no matter what product you use. Some people may have reactions to spores, but they are far from the solitary cause of allergic reactions. Mold spores are everywhere, but they will be found in higher than normal concentrations in the area of an active colony. The important thing here is to recognize if you are susceptable and protect yourself accordingly. Second is, regardless of what you use to clean up, to completely clean up everything, including wiping up any mold debris. As I said, even dead mold carcasses and their parts can be an allergen. The biggest part of the remediation process is knowing when to clean and when to tear out and throw away. Not everything can be saved by cleaning.
....... By the way, I am one of those mold remediation guys...... and have been for about 10 years.
HI
How do I tell its black mold and when I use the bleach mix will it react with the mold? I have a picture can you tell if that is black mold
Thanks for any help
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Old 05-18-2011, 08:04 AM   #23
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How bad is black mold?


It doesn't matter if it's black mold or any other color. You treat it the same. 1) Solve the moisture issue that created an environment for it to live. (60% or greater RH, .6 or greater water content for common molds) 2) Clean it. Wipe it. Scrub it. Sand it off. Whatever it takes. 3) Treat it with a fungicide. Bleach, or any of the other well known mold killers. 4) Get it dry. 5) Seal it. Bin, Kilz, Fosters, etc. All of these companies make sealers for areas that were afflicted with mold. They aren't anything special, but have a fungicidal chemical included in them. They are not a substitute for steps 1-4. Mold is not reactive. Apply something it doesn't like and it will die. It doesn't turn into anything more sinister than what it already is. You have to eliminate it's comfortable environment (moisture). You have to clean it to remove all of the allergens. Even dead mold carcasses and left over mycotoxins are allergens to some people. You treat porous surfaces with a fungicide to kill any left over hyphae or mold that is hidden or can't be reached. Seal it to lock down any residual hyphal/spore/fungal fragments and for appearance.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:09 AM   #24
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Maintenance 6,

Can you provide us with objective evidence (for example, testing from a non-commercial source) demonstrating that chlorine bleach at any concentration is effective at "killing mold" in a porous organic surface such a typical 2x4" wall stud?

If not, what is the source of you opinion?
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:14 AM   #25
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How bad is black mold?


As for "Black Mold":

Health Effects of Moulds (Molds): State of Knowledge
Indoor Fungi!
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Old 05-19-2011, 02:37 PM   #26
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How bad is black mold?


Michael: good site.
Also: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16159635 for:
Aerosolized sodium hypochlorite inhibits viability and allergenicity of mold on building materials.
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Old 05-19-2011, 08:58 PM   #27
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A study by the University of Arizona found that concentrations of Sodium Hypochlorite (common bleach) as low as 2.4%, not only killed mold but broke down the organisms to their component parts to such an extent that they were rendered harmless and could not be considered an allergen. That said, nowhere will you find a mold remediation product that legitimately claims to kill mold that is embedded in an organic material. In order to be effective, any fungicide must make physical contact with it's prey. Hence the reason for appying a sealer as a final step. To lock down any organism or component parts of organiasms that cannot be reasonably dis-infected.

http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0...083-1/abstract
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:21 PM   #28
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Thanks to you both. I found the full text of the first study, which produced good results with Sodium Hypochlorite on gypsum board, OSB and plywood, I could not find the full text of the second, and could not determine what materials were tested.

Here's the rub: the tests do not reflect what I see in the field, which is that 2-5% Sodium Hypochlorite does not effectivly suppress most molds on porous organic materials which as softwood 2 x 4"s.

I do not not know why I observe this difference, the first thought that comes to mind is that materials like OSB and plywood contained binders and resins which may act to make them a "less porous surface" than some other building materials, and makes them less akin to the non-or minimally porous surfaces on which everyone (as far as I know) agrees that Sodium Hypochlorite is highly effective.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a "Sodium Hypochlorite Denier", and I'm just fine SH being demonstrated to be highly effective on highly porous organic surfaces. and I am impressed with the results on the materials tested, which exceeded my expectations.

It's just that when you get to highly porous organic materials. it becomes a question of "Who are you going to believe? The Lab studies, or your lying eyes"?

And given the level of concern created by mold for many of my clients, and the amount of money spent on mold remediation in the US every year, I'd love to see some research to close the gap between the lab results and my field observations - if application standards for SH can be developed and demonstrated as highly effective on entire typical residential gypsum board/wood stud wall structure, that would be a Very Good Thing.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:47 AM   #29
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One must be careful with visual observations on porous surfaces. Molds produce mycotoxins. These are chemicals that molds use to digest food sources and as a defense against competing molds, parasitic molds and bacterias. Not all mycotoxins are a problem, yeast produces CO2 to make bread rise, while some produce ethanol compounds to create beer. Others can be a whole host of very nasty chemicals. These chemicals usually cause staining which should not be confused with viable mold colonies. That is why most remediators use final step sealers that are heavily pigmented. It produces the impression that the effected area is completely clean even though a clear sealer would do just as well at locking down any stray mold fragments. With the possible exception of an isolated blotch, I would never recommend, nor try to remediate mold on gypsum wallboard. Whatever level of moisture created the mold, also likely destroyed the structural integrity of the wallboard. It is such a cheap material that it should be considered disposable.
The link posted about the health effects is probably the best written that I've come across and matches what I've learned over the past dozen years about mold. Unlike toxic materials and chemicals that have threshold limits of exposure, you won't find any for mold.
I understand your comment about the study of effectiveness of bleach on porous surfaces. There are a few studies that were conducted, but they were not very scientific and the documentation is seriously lacking. The only one I have read that has credence in my opinion is one that showed how ineffective ozone was in mold remediation.

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