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Old 12-13-2009, 09:55 AM   #16
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Basement Framing Question


Put it this way, up here, we install the 3.5" wide rolls on the floor under any wood that lies on concrete - because of moisture migration problems. No air flow down there and no reason to restrict air flow anyway.

I am talking about basements, underneath the wall members that lie on the concrete, not at the sill/foundation level. There, I agree air flow is critical.

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Old 12-13-2009, 09:58 AM   #17
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Without framing the walls all the way up they will not be bearing against the top joists
That top part provides a lot of support when someone leans against the wall
i wouldn't even think twice about framing up to the floor joists. the OP however wanted to know if he has to. he doesn't. he could frame walls out of 8' studs with single shoe and single top plate, then block up every 3' or so to attach to the floor joist. nothing wrong with that, especially since he is dropping the entire ceiling down to 7'-5". if he thinks he will save money that way, i don't see any foul in that. i personally think the difference is negligible.

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PT is required by code based on years of experience with building
true.

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Water vapor comes thru concrete...even in a dry basement
if there's a moisture issue, it isn't exactly a dry basement.

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Not doing it to code & spending the few extra $'s is just stupid
stupid could be one of two things. not doing it to code when you have to, and doing it to code when you don't have to.

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I'd use the PT bottom plate, & a double top plate with 1/2" plywood sandwiched in between
That gets you to 8' 5" which you say you need
Double top & bottom = 8' 6" which is 1/2" too much
seems like a ton of work. OP is looking for a quick way out, not 1/2"ply to rip to plate width.
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Walls should be out 1-2" from the concrete wall, studs should not be against the wall
Best way seems to be rigid insulation against the wall, then stud wall w/insulation
best way is actually framing your walls 1" out from the concrete. the 1" gap is called an air space, much like the air space between a framed wall and a brick veneer on the house. filling it with insulation defeats the purpose. in addition to that, concrete is notoriously never ever straight, thus keeping the walls an inch out allows you to frame nice plumb/straight walls


My additon walls are 8' 4.5" tall, the bottom 4.5" will be partly covered by the flooring & rest covered by baseboard[/quote]
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:03 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ccarlisle View Post
Put it this way, up here, we install the 3.5" wide rolls on the floor under any wood that lies on concrete - because of moisture migration problems. No air flow down there and no reason to restrict air flow anyway.

I am talking about basements, underneath the wall members that lie on the concrete, not at the sill/foundation level. There, I agree air flow is critical.
what exactly is the point? and in what way does the wood fail? does it rot from rising water?

typically, new houses around here get a vapor barrier installed underneath the slab. on older houses, water may or may not be an issue, depending on the soil and water table and a number of other factors. i'd say 1 out of 10 houses that i've worked on had a moist basement, where using pt shoes would have postponed the inevitable.

i'm not saying that what you're describing is ridiculous, i'm just saying that it may be a tad redundant in most cases.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:16 AM   #19
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Water - in the form of vapour - rises through concrete; maybe less so than when you have a vapour barrier underneath the slab, but that's not always the case. We're not as worried about water in the form of a liquid which would happen if you had a flood or soemthing.

But that water vapour coming up through the concrete has a high pH - as most concrete has unneutralized alkaline salts in it. Really old stuff maybe not but most does. This alkaline water vapour will eventually degrade the wood. Which it does.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:25 AM   #20
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Water - in the form of vapour - rises through concrete; maybe less so than when you have a vapour barrier underneath the slab, but that's not always the case. We're not as worried about water in the form of a liquid which would happen if you had a flood or soemthing.

But that water vapour coming up through the concrete has a high pH - as most concrete has unneutralized alkaline salts in it. Really old stuff maybe not but most does. This alkaline water vapour will eventually degrade the wood. Which it does.
does PT somehow resist this degradation? or do we need to use sill seal anyway?
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:01 AM   #21
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Again, up here, we don't use PT wood in inside applications; we P-treat wood against termites and fungi degradation, usually with metal salts. Yours may be different...

But water vapour induced chemical attack is pretty hard to fight against; prevention there is the key.
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:05 AM   #22
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Again, up here, we don't use PT wood in inside applications; we P-treat wood against termites and fungi degradation, usually with metal salts. Yours may be different...

But water vapour induced chemical attack is pretty hard to fight against; prevention there is the key.
remind me to stay away from canada, water vapour chemical attacks don't sound fun at all
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:12 AM   #23
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I use PT & foam under them
Concrete contains chemicals - very corrosive
If you have ever had your bare hands in concrete you will know what I mean
It will peel the skin off your hands
Now imagine that working on wood day after day, year after year
So Yes it is needed & required when wood is against concrete
Regardless if you think the basement is dry
Enough water vapor comes thru, even in a dry basement to cause this action

Doing it right is the way to do it
Its not redundant, my last house was 100 years old, this house is approaching 60 years old
The idea is not make the construction last for years....but centuries
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:31 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
I use PT & foam under them
Concrete contains chemicals - very corrosive
If you have ever had your bare hands in concrete you will know what I mean
It will peel the skin off your hands
Now imagine that working on wood day after day, year after year
So Yes it is needed & required when wood is against concrete
Regardless if you think the basement is dry
Enough water vapor comes thru, even in a dry basement to cause this action

Doing it right is the way to do it
Its not redundant, my last house was 100 years old, this house is approaching 60 years old
The idea is not make the construction last for years....but centuries
that makes you 160 years old?

i frame houses for a living, you read about it online. we do whatever the codes tell us to do to, there's no arguing with the building department. but over the years, some of us form certain opinions based on observations made. sometimes that means that codes are redundant, other times it's the direct opposite. yet sometimes they're very applicable.

again, i wouldn't advise anyone to go against your local official's best wishes.
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Old 12-13-2009, 12:36 PM   #25
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Basement Framing Question


Smuth10, if you read the link given on fire-blocking, you will understand that vertical cavities (walls and chases) need to be fire or draft stopped at the ceiling and floor line that change to horizontal cavities (joists, rafters and soffits). The frame wall or drywall doesn't need to go all the way up -if ---- you tie it off as mentioned every 2' or per local code AND fire-block the top of wall drywall to the outside sheathing or top plate. Code is the minimum safety fire and building requirements for a structure. If a fire starts at an outlet behind your new wall, would you rather: 1. have it burn in that cavity that is fire blocked every 10' horizontally and vertically- sealed at the top - setting off the smoke alarm giving you precious minutes more time to get out; or 2. race along that wall length into every joist space above, following holes that didn't get blocked from wires or plumbing pipes to exit upstairs, starting fires anywhere the joist runs are not blocked. A newer house may be safer than an older one because of the draft stopping foam in all exterior and interior wall's holes filled between floors at top and bottom plates.


Be safe, Gary
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Old 12-13-2009, 01:01 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
I use PT & foam under them
Concrete contains chemicals - very corrosive
If you have ever had your bare hands in concrete you will know what I mean
It will peel the skin off your hands
Now imagine that working on wood day after day, year after year
So Yes it is needed & required when wood is against concrete
Regardless if you
think the basement is dry
Dave,

Using foam underneath the shoe in a basement has to be e Regional thing because that isn't code under IRC


Quote:
Doing it right is the way to do it
Doing things right is always the right way to build, but not using foam underneath pt shoe is also the right way to build because you don't need it.
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Old 12-13-2009, 01:12 PM   #27
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Actually its in my garage
But I have seen it recommended even in a basement
Code is min standards you must meet
Building something above code is better
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Old 12-13-2009, 01:25 PM   #28
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Actually its in my garage
But I have seen it recommended even in a basement
Maybe you've seen it reccomened , but it's not code and there's no reason to add foam/sill seal to the bottom of pt for framing basement walls. That doesn't make the job better.

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Code is min standards you must meet
Building something above code is better
That's if your designing a project, you can build however you want and think it';s better. You can use all microlams for headers when you don't need them. You can frame 8" on center if you want. You can use 3/4" t&g glued and screwed for wall sheathing if you want and think it's better and above code. Simple answer is that you don't need to. Where does it end.

I get plans from an Architect with everything spec'd. I build according to the plans and don't change anything. If they're designing to minimum standards and the houses are still standing, that means they're doing something right. If I see something on a set a plans I don't think looks right, I will always question it.

Alot of people on forums will say that they build better and stronger houses because they add more lumber and do things like I mentioned above. That does not mean their houses are better, it means that they just wasted time and money for no reason.
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Old 12-13-2009, 01:31 PM   #29
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Actually DOW recommends it
I understand its your business & extra cost usually means less profit for you

http://building.dow.com/na/en/applic...nsillplate.htm
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Old 12-13-2009, 01:36 PM   #30
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I understand its your business & extra cost usually means less profit for you
Has nothing to do with less profit for me. Where did that come from? If I bid a job according to the plans and supply materials any added cost for lumber is included in the job. No extra cost for me. If some Architect spec'd 3/4 t&g for wall sheathing glued and screwed, that would increase my labor. Not loosing any profit.

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