Annie5 - framing over uneven concrete floor

Annie5 · 11-19-2009, 09:19 PM

What is the proper way to frame a floor over uneven cement? When remodeling after a fire, the living area (on a concrete slab) was extended into the back end of the garage (that ell is about 6 x 12') and down the side (3' strip). The garage cement floor is lower than the living area slab by about 2', and it slopes down to the front.

I cannot do the work myself (age and health), but I need to know what I should have done and should be looking for.

I had the 5/8" plywood floor taken off to check that it would be okay to lay ceramic tile there. The framing does not look stable at all.

In some places the sides are fully resting on a cement sill, but not all. On the side of the ell towards the garage, there is a 2 x 8 that really isn’t supported by anything except the cross joists which are in turn supported by the arrangement described below.

From the living area to the end of the ell, there are 2 x 8 joists going across, spaced 12” and 16” oc. On the outer side (what was the back end of the garage), they are hung over the cement sill with notches half way down them. Isn't that too much weakened?

Underneath the joists going across the ell, apparently for leveling, there are pieces of 2 x 4 here and there (no particular pattern) lying on the 4” side against the cement, many with some wedges (even the occasional skinny piece of scrap wood) on top of them as shims under the joists.

Along the living area slab, there is a 2 x 8 resting on a concrete “ledge” which appears to have been chipped out of the slab (or a separator?), but the ledge is so bumpy the board and concrete are not in full contact… there are significant gaps (up to at least ½”) between them for long stretches.

On the outer wall of the strip (toward the garage), there is a 2 x 4 directly on cement (on 2” side), then another board overhanging that by an inch or so, then two boards with sides butting on top of that overhanging by another inch or so. Doesn’t make sense to me.

Also, although there are no cracks in the slab in the original living area, there is a crack in the cement in the portion of the garage incorporated into the living area – a gap of ¼ to 3/8” wide, running crookedly for about 3’. One side of the crack begins butted tight to the cement which separates the higher living area slab from the garage slab, while the other side of the crack begins ¼” or more away from that separator. It appears that the tight part buckled.

This whole thing can't be right, can it? Am I right in thinking I need to have all that taken out and start again? I would appreciate any guidance you can offer, as I would like to be sure it's done right this time.

I don't know what kind of wood is there. Some seems to have a lot of knotholes. Some seems to be treated, but not most.

**Gary in WA** · 11-20-2009, 08:37 PM

Check on your plans for the remodel or rebuild. The approved set by the County should have the detail or your copy. There are certain ways to frame over concrete, in addition to carrying any loads that the old wall had, safely. Adding living space may require additional procedures that we are unable to address without being there as your local building department would know. And.... welcome to the forum!

Be safe, Gary

Annie5 · 11-21-2009, 02:42 PM

I don't have such plans. I live in a very rural town.
Could you please direct me to a site(s) where I can find the information I need?

roadhouse · 11-21-2009, 08:02 PM

anne, you must live next to me. i completely remodled my first house and buit the house we live now from below the ground up, and never heard or seen any of this code or inspection stuff. lol

Scuba_Dave · 11-21-2009, 08:08 PM

Do you have any pics that you can post of the existing framing?

Annie5 · 11-21-2009, 10:23 PM

I have a lot of pictures and they are loaded on my computer, but I don't know how to get them here (I have been trying).

Annie5 · 11-21-2009, 10:31 PM

I know how to email the photos, if that is a possibility.

Annie5 · 11-22-2009, 03:35 PM

Will send another six shortly.

Annie5 · 11-22-2009, 04:02 PM

Here are more pics. If something is not clear, please let me know.

Annie5 · 11-22-2009, 04:26 PM

You can see the area where the top framing is wider than what's underneath it, altho you can't see the bottom piece, which is still narrower.

Looking at these, I want to check on whether I missed a crack in a corner of the cement sill where it meets the original living area slab.

All comments welcome!!

11-19-2009, 09:19 PM	#1
Annie5 Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 30	Annie5 - framing over uneven concrete floor What is the proper way to frame a floor over uneven cement? When remodeling after a fire, the living area (on a concrete slab) was extended into the back end of the garage (that ell is about 6 x 12') and down the side (3' strip). The garage cement floor is lower than the living area slab by about 2', and it slopes down to the front. I cannot do the work myself (age and health), but I need to know what I should have done and should be looking for. I had the 5/8" plywood floor taken off to check that it would be okay to lay ceramic tile there. The framing does not look stable at all. In some places the sides are fully resting on a cement sill, but not all. On the side of the ell towards the garage, there is a 2 x 8 that really isn’t supported by anything except the cross joists which are in turn supported by the arrangement described below. From the living area to the end of the ell, there are 2 x 8 joists going across, spaced 12” and 16” oc. On the outer side (what was the back end of the garage), they are hung over the cement sill with notches half way down them. Isn't that too much weakened? Underneath the joists going across the ell, apparently for leveling, there are pieces of 2 x 4 here and there (no particular pattern) lying on the 4” side against the cement, many with some wedges (even the occasional skinny piece of scrap wood) on top of them as shims under the joists. Along the living area slab, there is a 2 x 8 resting on a concrete “ledge” which appears to have been chipped out of the slab (or a separator?), but the ledge is so bumpy the board and concrete are not in full contact… there are significant gaps (up to at least ½”) between them for long stretches. On the outer wall of the strip (toward the garage), there is a 2 x 4 directly on cement (on 2” side), then another board overhanging that by an inch or so, then two boards with sides butting on top of that overhanging by another inch or so. Doesn’t make sense to me. Also, although there are no cracks in the slab in the original living area, there is a crack in the cement in the portion of the garage incorporated into the living area – a gap of ¼ to 3/8” wide, running crookedly for about 3’. One side of the crack begins butted tight to the cement which separates the higher living area slab from the garage slab, while the other side of the crack begins ¼” or more away from that separator. It appears that the tight part buckled. This whole thing can't be right, can it? Am I right in thinking I need to have all that taken out and start again? I would appreciate any guidance you can offer, as I would like to be sure it's done right this time. I don't know what kind of wood is there. Some seems to have a lot of knotholes. Some seems to be treated, but not most. Last edited by Annie5; 11-19-2009 at 09:25 PM. Reason: forgot a point

11-20-2009, 08:37 PM	#2
Gary in WA Moderator Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 8,843	Annie5 - framing over uneven concrete floor Check on your plans for the remodel or rebuild. The approved set by the County should have the detail or your copy. There are certain ways to frame over concrete, in addition to carrying any loads that the old wall had, safely. Adding living space may require additional procedures that we are unable to address without being there as your local building department would know. And.... welcome to the forum! Be safe, Gary __________________ Clothes taking longer to dry? Clean the dryer screen in HOT water if using fabric softener sheets. They leave a residue that impedes air-flow, costing you money. Clean the ducting in the last six months? 17,000 dryer fires annually!

11-21-2009, 02:42 PM	#3
Annie5 Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 30	Annie5 - framing over uneven concrete floor I don't have such plans. I live in a very rural town. Could you please direct me to a site(s) where I can find the information I need?

11-21-2009, 08:02 PM	#4
roadhouse Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 68	Annie5 - framing over uneven concrete floor anne, you must live next to me. i completely remodled my first house and buit the house we live now from below the ground up, and never heard or seen any of this code or inspection stuff. lol

11-21-2009, 08:08 PM	#5
Scuba_Dave Xtreme DIY'r Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: South of Boston, MA Posts: 17,248	Annie5 - framing over uneven concrete floor Do you have any pics that you can post of the existing framing?

Annie5 - framing over uneven concrete floor