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Old 08-15-2011, 12:35 PM   #16
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2 2x12" Header - Want to remove post


What's on top of that opening, did you say?

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Old 08-15-2011, 12:37 PM   #17
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A couple thoughts on the age and origin of the 2x12.

To me it's apparent that the 2x12 header was an add on. Look all the way to the left. See the darker original framing? This header looks newer than that wood.

Also, the 2x12 we see in the photo looks like a piece that was salvaged from elsewhere, maybe even another structure. See the shadows in the wood patina? Looks like a line of joists 16 inch on center. In fact, it looks like the 2x12 was originally flipped over. And the 2x4's look newer than the 2x12. I think the 2x12 was salvaged from elsewhere, and shortened to fit this span.

Also, if is this a header at an exterior wall, a couple of rules apply.

The load you calculate for it will have to account for the tributary D/L floor loads on the load path directly above the header, plus the D/L roof loads of both the house and the addition.

Last edited by Aggie67; 08-15-2011 at 12:40 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 08-15-2011, 02:36 PM   #18
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The header has patina differences because I tore off shims that were used to bring the drywall up to the plaster level.
I do not think it was salvaged from another installation. It was definitely added after the original house was built.
All framing in this house is old style oak actual 2" by 4" lumber...really hard stuff.
I think they added the header when they made the kitchen addition (1950s).
The support column was definitely added much later, probably in the last 30 years.

I forget what is actually above the whole header.
Above the left 2/3 of the header is a mix of vertical 2x4s and a beam, the right 1/3 is not in contact with much of anything from what I remember. (a very important detail, of course)
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Old 08-15-2011, 02:39 PM   #19
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2 2x12" Header - Want to remove post


There's no living space above the header?
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Old 08-15-2011, 02:43 PM   #20
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Oh, yes, this is a 2 story house.
There is a bathroom above the red kitchen and a bedroom above the dining room (where the photographer was standing).
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Old 08-15-2011, 04:45 PM   #21
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To me, this doesn't look like a big repair. Head to your local lumberyard and have them spec a beam. A swag would be the equivalent to a 3.5x11 7/8" LVL beam.
You just need to follow the load path to make sure that the posts are supported all the way to the foundation. If the posts end up in the center of a girder than you need to strengthen that as well.
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Old 08-15-2011, 09:23 PM   #22
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I updated the span distance. It is actually 106" (8'10"), I had someone else measure it for me.
I also re-read the IBC tables I have been citing (http://napasolanoicc.org/Links/IBCSp...apterFinal.pdf).
I should be in the "Roof, Ceiling and 1 Clear Span Floor" section of the Header and Girder Spans for Exterior Bearing Walls section.
That shows 7'1" for the max span. That table only goes down to 20' wide house, where this house is 16' wide.

I used the Exterior Bearing Walls table because this used to be an exterior wall. It is also bearing some of the weight of the addition though... so it is a gray area.
I need a structural engineer who specializes in this sort of thing, which will tough to find.

I definitely need more jack studs and possibly need a new header.

Last edited by edro; 08-15-2011 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 08-15-2011, 11:56 PM   #23
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Wow, be nice guys!! Some of those responses seemed to be pretty ignorant.

Lets see if I can help here a bit. The beam is not "cracked", it is called checking. Cracked is against the grain of the lumber, checking is when it goes with the grain.

You can CLEARLY tell that the checking is due to the shrinkage of the lumber. Most of the checking seems to be originating around the knot in the 2x12.. for the most part, checking in lumber is fine as long as the nailing pattern is accepted. I'm tired of all this Mike Holmes crap about over engineering the structure and spending 5 times the amount of money for the same outcome, period. I have done MANY major structural upgrades with very good engineers in my time and we laugh at what we see others over engineer, But thats just my 2 cents

As for the cripples picking up the load of the beam, it is fine. A good rule is one half the thickness of the beam is the amount you need to pick up the load. 2-2x12's equal 3 inches, half that is 1 1/2 inches which is a 2x4 or 2x6 (depending on the wall depth) exactly what you have there.

Best of luck!!
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Old 08-16-2011, 06:07 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyr View Post
Wow, be nice guys!! Some of those responses seemed to be pretty ignorant.

Lets see if I can help here a bit. The beam is not "cracked", it is called checking. Cracked is against the grain of the lumber, checking is when it goes with the grain.

You can CLEARLY tell that the checking is due to the shrinkage of the lumber. Most of the checking seems to be originating around the knot in the 2x12.. for the most part, checking in lumber is fine as long as the nailing pattern is accepted. I'm tired of all this Mike Holmes crap about over engineering the structure and spending 5 times the amount of money for the same outcome, period. I have done MANY major structural upgrades with very good engineers in my time and we laugh at what we see others over engineer, But thats just my 2 cents

As for the cripples picking up the load of the beam, it is fine. A good rule is one half the thickness of the beam is the amount you need to pick up the load. 2-2x12's equal 3 inches, half that is 1 1/2 inches which is a 2x4 or 2x6 (depending on the wall depth) exactly what you have there.

Best of luck!!
I asked a structural engineer (PE) friend of mine (steel structures) and his first thought was it was shrinkage due to low humidity too!

Still, I would like it to be IBC compliant, just so I feel better about it.

I checked the basement again and there is a brick wall under the right side jack stud and a column under the center 4x4" column, but there is nothing under the left side jack stud. I will probably add a steel screw column under it to make me feel better.
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Old 08-16-2011, 06:15 AM   #25
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For a good discussion about "checking", see the following website:
http://www.wvu.edu/~exten/infores/pu...er/wooddr2.pdf

You will note from the article that checking is generally defined as shrinkage induced cracking that typically occurs on the outside or ends of logs or heavy timbers. In this case, the "cracks" we are discussing are NOT checking at all, as they occur essentially along the neutral axis of the beam, NOT on the ends or the edges.

And if you read my previous post carefully, you will note that I do not claim that there is anything unusual or unsafe about the cracking (yes, this is cracking, not checking) that has occurred. In fact, all large timbers subjected to shear will show cracking along the neutral axis, this is normal. What I did state, and I stand by it, is that it is essential to compute the capacity of the existing header BEFORE removing any support posts. This is scarcely a radical, over engineered concept, merely common sense. If you can do the analysis yourself, no problem, else you hire someone to do it for you. Nothing radical, out of the ordinary, or odd here.
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Old 08-16-2011, 06:53 AM   #26
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Thank you for that article.
If nothing else, this is a good discussion thread about cracking headers!

Here is another quick bit about checking in log homes: http://www.inspectapedia.com/structure/Log_Checking.htm

Last edited by edro; 08-16-2011 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 08-18-2011, 08:16 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Holzman View Post
You will note from the article that checking is generally defined as shrinkage induced cracking that typically occurs on the outside or ends of logs or heavy timbers. In this case, the "cracks" we are discussing are NOT checking at all, as they occur essentially along the neutral axis of the beam, NOT on the ends or the edges.
I'm sorry, I read you "article" about how the beam was not checking but cracking and no where under "checking" does it say this only applys to logs and large timbers.

I work with wood every single and trust me when I say, almost EVERY piece of wood has checking on it. 2x4's, 2x6's 2x10 etc.

You can clearly see that the 2x12's in the picture he attached isn't "cracked" from the load of the house. If it was going to crack, it would start at the weakest point, where the knot is located.. And since the checking is running with the grain, It is checked..

End of story..
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Old 08-19-2011, 08:00 AM   #28
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Update: I installed a steel column beside the 4x4" column, then removed the 4x4" column.
I also installed a new 4x4 on each jack stud location. This at least brings the header up to IBC spec.
When I get the nerve, I will slowly lower the steel screw column to see how it does as far as deflection.

Last edited by edro; 08-19-2011 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 08-19-2011, 11:58 AM   #29
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Edro: What about what foundation elements are carrying your new point loads to the earth?
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Old 08-19-2011, 12:46 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob22 View Post
Edro: What about what foundation elements are carrying your new point loads to the earth?
Both sides have brick walls in the basement, taking the load to the concrete foundation. Because the brick was a little questionable looking to me, I added steel supports directly under each new 4x4" jack studs. I think the brick walls are sufficient, but having the steel to concrete makes me feel better.
The brick mortar has turned to dust on the outer surface and needs to be cleaned and re-tuck pointed.

The large beam in the basement now has 3 supports under it, 2 steel on the ends (along with brick walls) and 1 wooden column in the center.

BTW, I also removed the temporary steel column upstairs. I measured the distance from the floor to the header in 3 places before I removed it. All 3 measurements are within 1/16" of where they were before I removed the steel column.

Oh hell... this is too hard to explain. Here is the current installation. (Attachment)

Thank you all for all of your comments and suggestions, even the ones I didn't want to hear.
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2 2x12" Header - Want to remove post-newsetup.jpg  


Last edited by edro; 08-19-2011 at 12:48 PM.
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