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Old 01-19-2011, 08:56 AM   #31
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Mac VS PC


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Originally Posted by itguy08 View Post
Keeping the wife happy is priority #1 and if she wants a Mac, get her a Mac. You both will enjoy it and if you need any tips, let me know. One of the neatest things is that sleep mode works 100% of the time. Close the lid, the machine goes to sleep. Open it and it wakes nearly instantly. That makes using it a whole lot better and more productive!
Thank you - and thanks for the help offer. Part of what scares me about getting a Mac is that I know absolutely nothing about them.

I know the Mac vs PC debate will rage on - and will do so without me. All I want is a computer to do what I want it to do.

My wife works on a PC in her office all day every day. Spreadsheets, computer-generated mailings, etc. But at home she wants to be able to do some video & photo editing, etc. So the truth is, even if it costs a couple hundred dollars more for her to be happy, it's worth it.

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Old 01-19-2011, 10:05 AM   #32
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Glad your wife likes the laptop, DrHicks. I'm not here to sway minds, so much as make sure people get accurate information. Hope you enjoy many years with it.

I can talk at length about laptop hardware in manufacturing (and I did, I edited it out because my post was getting tldr.) Instead I'll skip ahead to this:

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Except that the Dell Latitude, optioned the same costs: $1,974 (Dell Latitude E6510) vs Apple's $1,999. The Macbook has a higher resolution screen, the Dell a better warranty.
A Lenovo T510 is about $1,809 and comes with a 1 year warranty.
Your comparison has basically proven my point, because you failed to read the specs that actually matter.

The quoted Macbook has a mickey-mouse graphics card by comparison to the quoted Latitude, with half the video RAM. The Macbook also totes a Core i5 while the Dell packs a Core i7 with almost triple the L2 cache. These are not equivalent specs at all. Dedicated graphics processing in laptops is a very expensive feature, yet somehow the Dell has more GPU and CPU muscle at a lower price. AND the Dell has a longer warranty with 3 years parts/onsite.

Finally, you do have to spec up the Dell to 4GB to match the MBP's memory, but it comes to $1826, not $1974.

So you're essentially paying LESS for a more powerful proc, tripled warranty with onsite, and double the video RAM. The hard drive is smaller, yes, but upgrading still costs less than the price difference.

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Or I could run my company on desktop class hardware with a couple RAID cards. After all, it's the same parts so why deal with server class hardware? I know many companies do but it's not optimal.
Problem with that is the the hardware you'll find in halfway-decent servers do not share any part similarities with desktops. Desktop motherboards typically don't have redundant power supply connectors, multiple NICs, 8+ DIMM banks and multiple Xeon-compatible proc sockets.

Frankly, you can't compare a Dell Desktop to, say, an HP Blade. There's no comparison to make.

Low-end ATX servers, though, sure.

Last edited by RedHelix; 01-19-2011 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:56 PM   #33
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Your comparison has basically proven my point, because you failed to read the specs that actually matter.
No, I matched them spec for spec.

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The quoted Macbook has a mickey-mouse graphics card by comparison to the quoted Latitude, with half the video RAM. The Macbook also totes a Core i5 while the Dell packs a Core i7 with almost triple the L2 cache. These are not equivalent specs at all. Dedicated graphics processing in laptops is a very expensive feature, yet somehow the Dell has more GPU and CPU muscle at a lower price. AND the Dell has a longer warranty with 3 years parts/onsite.
Please put your bias aside and look at the FACTS. The Latitude E6510 comes standard with a core i3, not a i7. I spec'ed it with an i5. You can see the system in the PDF.

Attached is the exact system I spec'ed out. It's as close to the Macbook Pro as you can get.

I suggest you set aside your biases before making incorrect assumptions.

Quote:
Low-end ATX servers, though, sure.
No comment....
Attached Files
File Type: pdf The Dell Online Store_ Build Your System.pdf (30.8 KB, 159 views)

Last edited by itguy08; 01-19-2011 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:58 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by DrHicks View Post
Thank you - and thanks for the help offer. Part of what scares me about getting a Mac is that I know absolutely nothing about them.
If you live near an Apple store they do have free training. Other than that it's not that hard to make the switch and if you have any questions just shoot me a PM or start another thread.
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:06 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by itguy08 View Post
No, I matched them spec for spec.



Please put your bias aside and look at the FACTS. The Latitude E6510 comes standard with a core i3, not a i7. I spec'ed it with an i5. You can see the system in the PDF.

Attached is the exact system I spec'ed out. It's as close to the Macbook Pro as you can get.

I suggest you set aside your biases before making incorrect assumptions.
Below: E6510 Premium, starting price $1681. Customized with 3GB additional memory, bringing total to $1826.

Compare this against the Apple MC372LL/A, which is $1999 on the Apple store and has weaker specs as described in my previous post.

And yes, even though you can find that model MBP discounted on Amazon for about the same price as this Dell, it still has a weaker proc, lousier warranty and half the video RAM.



The funniest part? Even the resolution on the Dell's screen is higher. (1600x900 vs 1440x900.) You got that wrong too.

The bottom line:
$1826 Dell = Core i7 @ 6MB L3 cache, 4GB RAM, NVS3100M w/ 512MB (G310M-based), 1600x900 resolution, 3 year parts/onsite labor warranty
$1999 MBP = Core i5 @ 3MB L3 cache, 4GB RAM, GT330M w/ 256MB, 1440x900 resolution, 1 year parts/dropoff warranty

Questions?

Last edited by RedHelix; 01-20-2011 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:37 AM   #36
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Let's not rely on Dell to be a price benchmark - they are a bit ridiculous in their custom built pricing.

From what I've found on the Apple site, a 15" Macbook Pro comes with the following:
2.4GHz Intel Core i5
4GB 1066MHz DDR3 memory
320GB SATA 5400 rpm hard disk
15" screen
DVD+/-R Superdrive
SD Card Slot
Built-in Battery
GeForce GT 330M with 256MB graphics memory
$1,799



Better example:
HP ProBook 6450b WZ305UT
2.66GHz Intel Core i5
4GB 1333MHz DDR3
320GB 7200rpm hard disk
15.6" screen
DVD Super Multi drive
7-in-1 media card reader
6-cell LiON battery (removable)
ATI Mobility Radeon HD 540v with 512 MB graphics memory
$1,199.99 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...662&CatId=4939



lower-end competitive Example:
HP ProBook 4520s WZ263UT
2.4GHz Intel Core i5
4GB 1066MHz DDR3 memory
500GB SATA 7200rpm hard disk
15.6" screen
DVD+/-R Super Multi
6-in-one Media Card reader
6-cell LiON battery (removable)
$799.99 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...905&CatId=4938

Last edited by hyunelan2; 01-20-2011 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:44 AM   #37
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I agree. I was just correcting itguy's - frankly - insane example with the E6510.

With other brands and pre-builds, yes, the price differential becomes even more obvious. A couple of years ago you could buy high-end Asus laptops for about 60% of an equivalently specced MBP.

I make it a point to mention Asus because at the time, their warranty was 2 years, and the first year covered accidental damage with guaranteed 7-day turnaround.

Examples like that should make any rational person unreceptive to claims that the added cost of Macs is in build quality.

Last edited by RedHelix; 01-20-2011 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:56 AM   #38
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Insane? Funny, I included a PDF of the complete specs from the Dell site and the one you included was not even a close comparison snippet..... Yours has a smaller HD (250GB vs 320GB, probably smaller battery, no webcam, etc.)

I'm sure if you dig long and hard enough on Dell or HP's website you will find machines that are cheaper and that are more expensive.

The point is the Apples are comparable in price to a mid-level business class machine from a major vendor. Maybe a little more expensive but there is a reason for that.

You think they are expensive, they are not. Nobody's going to change your mind. I think they are not. My mind is not going to change until I can go to Dell, HP, Lenovo and get something similar very much cheaper.

To the OP: get what your wife likes and wants. If you need help, shoot me a PM. The Mac is better built, and more reliable than any PC machine. This can be backed up by Consumer Reports, PC Magazine, and a few others where Apple has rated #1 in service and support. Most who have tried both never go back to a PC.

I'm pretty much done with this thread - these pi$$ing matches go nowhere and solve nothing.
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:58 AM   #39
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I don't know how many ways you need to be shown that you're wrong, but please by all means feel free to excuse yourself from the conversation.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:16 AM   #40
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I don't have the time nor do I care to spend the time on Dell's, HP's, or Lenovo's website to prove you wrong time and time again, like I have done... The only difference is I have compared them as close as you can get, feature by feature and you have not. You have not even provided complete screen shots to the "superior" systems.

So if you want to think you "won", go ahead. I don't care - I've been around this business for a long time and have experience on ALL platforms (DOS, Win, Linux, and OS X), did the hardware repair thing, etc. I stand by my comparisons and assessments 100%.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:33 AM   #41
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PCs and Macs are both amazing operating systems.
They are both just very different.
For an office working on a network that has a lot of media that needs to be transferred freely, PCs are a great way to go.
It's more of a business solution for the big guy.

If you want something that is user friendly, then you need a MAC!
No ifs, ands or buts about it.
There has only been one recorded virus to ever penetrate a mac and that was from the number 1 security programmer against viruses.
He is a smart guy.
Any Mac computer will come equipped with a great deal of memory and ram.
The files and games are larger on a Mac, but the operating interface of Mac 10 is amongst the best in the world for any electronic.
The monitors on a Mac are even better than the flat screen TV you may have at home.
I do not sell Macs nor have I ever worked for the company.
They are just great operating systems.


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Old 01-20-2011, 10:54 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itguy08 View Post
I don't have the time nor do I care to spend the time on Dell's, HP's, or Lenovo's website to prove you wrong time and time again, like I have done... The only difference is I have compared them as close as you can get, feature by feature and you have not. You have not even provided complete screen shots to the "superior" systems.
I know this post was not directed at me, but what about the 2 HP notebooks I provided links to? Both of those are similar to slightly superior to the MBP, at less cost.

Quote:
Maybe a little more expensive but there is a reason for that.
Yes, Advertising/marketing costs and a "prestige" premium. A Lexus ES does not cost $15K more than a Camry because it costs that much more to make. It, like Apple, targets itself to be a "luxury good" that adds percentage ponits to the margin of the product.

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Originally Posted by Einhorn_B View Post
The monitors on a Mac are even better than the flat screen TV you may have at home.
Most computer monitors - even older ones, are going to be better than 90% of the TVs on the market. Mac does have nice displays, but that's not because of Apple. LG makes the majority of Macs displays, along with many other companies LCD products.



I don't hate macs, I just disagree that they are "superior" in any way at a similar price point.
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Old 01-20-2011, 12:17 PM   #43
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[quote=itguy08;574354]
Quote:
So if you want to think you "won", go ahead. I don't care - I've been around this business for a long time and have experience on ALL platforms (DOS, Win, Linux, and OS X), did the hardware repair thing, etc. I stand by my comparisons and assessments 100%.
Spare us the conceit, nobody's out here to win. My objective is simply to prevent the propagation of terrible advice. Any electrician would flip out if they saw someone instructing a newbie to use #14 on a 20a breaker, and the situation here is no different.

I think what you're failing to understand is that it's indeed universally accepted that more muscle can be had per-dollar on Windows-based systems than with Macs. And, despite your anecdotal experience, the reliability is pretty much the same with mid to high-range PCs... if not better.

This has been shown to you to the best of both mine and others people's willingness. In regards to having insufficient screenshots... JFGI. We are not here to do your homework for you.

Moving on: Complaining about not having a spec-to-spec lineup is a pretty dumb argument, because it's already been one-upped: We've shown you numerous examples Macs being sold more expensively than PCs with better specs and better warranties. What counterpoint do you think you have, exactly?

Finally:
For the last time, sizing up seniority doesn't do you any good. I would not be qualified for my job if I wasn't an expert in multiple areas of IT. I've climbed the career ladder from PC repair to NOCs and you don't see me running my mouth about it. I'm not sure what makes you think your credentials are so distinctive.

Last edited by RedHelix; 01-20-2011 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:01 PM   #44
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Okay now, if you kids can quit bickering long enough I'm going to tell you what we did.


She got the MacBook Pro for $1199. There were several features that we thought we well worth the extra $200.


She's very happy. I only hope that translates into me being very happy, very soon. Ehemmm...
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:39 AM   #45
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I'm glad she likes it; hope you enjoy many years with it.

My only objective is to ensure that anyone else who comes across this thread doesn't get bad information.

The overall point is that if you want a Mac, get a Mac. Enjoy it. Just expect to pay more for the same hardware.

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