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Old 05-29-2007, 05:59 PM   #16
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


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Originally Posted by ktkelly View Post
Tilting up to meet your gaze...

Tilting down to meet your gaze...

Hmmmm.
The fact that you're puzzled by that or think that they are somehow equivalent says it all.

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Old 05-29-2007, 06:39 PM   #17
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


I don't know what you think that says, but it really doesn't matter to me.

You may ask yourself why there are SOOO many TV's being placed over the fireplace these days? Why are most builders doing it that way?

In case you can't work it out, the answer is:





Market demand.


The days of a 27" B&W RCA with that big Oak console sitting on the floor are OVER.....
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Old 05-29-2007, 07:21 PM   #18
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


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Originally Posted by keyser soze View Post
I do not understand all of the wording but I think we agree. I don't want one there and neither do you. I don't think we need to argue about it anymore. The tilt mount at least makes the TV face directly at you instead of facing the wall above your head. My terminology was wrong. It does not change the viewing angle but it does improve perceived picture quality. I get a little too rushed when I reply sometimes (like right now, I get off work at 4:30).
If it doesn't change the vertical viewing angle, I don't understand what it does. I thought you were talking about something equivalent to a computer monitor tilt feature, which is typically used to rotate the monitor to face up a bit. This brings it into line with the natural tendency to gaze downward when seated at a desk and helps account for the top of the display being at or about eye level, at least if you're following ergonomic principles.

As for a TV mounted higher than optimal for your seating position, tilting this TV downward would help bring the display perpendicular to your line of sight, which is good, but how do you get your line of sight to the TV in the first place? Answer: You crane your neck, lay back in a recliner, or look out the top of your eyeballs, none of which is a desirable requirement.

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Originally Posted by keyser soze View Post
I agree horizontal centerline of the TV should be at eye level when seated. That's where I would hang it if it were my TV and my house.

Still I say that if someone wants a TV over their FP they should put the TV there. We have customers that get this setup to be "cool" [didn't say that I agree with it] while the TV's they actually spend time watching are lower. It won't hurt a thing. It will not overheat.

If someone wants to be really cool they get a roll up painting over the TV that's over the FP. I'd rather spend that money on Crestron gear but if it weren't for those kinds of people I'd still be swinging a sledgehammer and running a torch to make ends meet.
Of course, it's up to the individual to determine the trade-offs that make sense for him. If I've expressed my preferences a little strongly, it's because I would have really, really hated having the TV mounted high, and I'm very glad I thought about this while house hunting. I hope I've explained some issues that might not be immediately obvious. I wince when I see someone craning their neck to view a TV mounted too high, or a computer monitor that's too high due to an elevated shelf integrated into their desk, or even to view a monitor that's positioned properly that they can't see because they don't have computer glasses and have to look through the reading area of their bifocals. For a lot of people, these bad ergonomics contribute to debilitating chronic neck pain, and I know from experience they may not have considered these things.
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Old 05-29-2007, 09:21 PM   #19
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


and post #12 in a row that has nothing to do with the OP's question!

FWIW I have my montitors up high so that I have to stretch my back upwards to avoid slouching. Oops just had to move mine up some more....

ktkelly, thanks, I though maybe I was a crazy b-hole there for a minute. I also though I was dumb for not being able to work out some of those sentences. I am just as guilty as anyone for making sentences (I love me some run-ons) that are hard to follow but at least they make sense after a few readings.

I'll do some calculations tomorrow at work to see just how "ridiculous" the angles are when viewing a TV over a average FP. I bet they are within a few degrees of THX and SMPTE standards.

You know, I just thought to myself, "Self, why in God's name would they put those first 10-20 rown in a movie theater?" Given, you spend less time in a movie theater than you do in your living, great or rec room but still.

In the end some people actually consider decor more important than A/V. That's why my company can sell "invisible" speakers for exorbitant amounts of money that dont even sound that good. :shrug:
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Old 05-29-2007, 10:13 PM   #20
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


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Originally Posted by tima2381 View Post

As for a TV mounted higher than optimal for your seating position, tilting this TV downward would help bring the display perpendicular to your line of sight, which is good, but how do you get your line of sight to the TV in the first place? Answer: You crane your neck, lay back in a recliner, or look out the top of your eyeballs, none of which is a desirable requirement.

Now I see the problem.

Looking out the top of your eyeballs? Craning your neck?

That is some serious over exaggeration.....

I don't know about you, but if I lie back in a recliner, all I can see IS the ceiling. In that position I can very clearly see my toes, with some effort, but I cannot see my TV (big toes).....
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Old 05-30-2007, 07:55 AM   #21
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


yeah when I sit back comfortably against the back of my couch I actually look up a little. Wait... The office chair puts my sight line at about 10- 15 degrees above level.

Little busy for a few hours here but calculations are forthcoming.
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:20 AM   #22
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


ok, will this put this to bed? Probably not but here it is anyway.

calculate all you want, 36 degrees for THX and 30 for SMPTE

If my 9th grade geometry skills serve me correctly (very good chance they don't edited to add my worthless memory caused a "traingle calculator" google search )

a TV that's 6 ft AFF (horizontal centerline of course) being viewed from 10 feet away (we'll say a 60" tv) yields a viewing angle of... wait for it..... 30.964 degrees!!!!!! :wipes sweat from forehead:

and while I was searching I found this nifty looking spreadsheet that I have not tested yet.

:throws both arms straight up in the air and walks away:
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:59 AM   #23
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


Quote:
Originally Posted by keyser soze View Post
and post #12 in a row that has nothing to do with the OP's question!

When I made my initial post, the OP had already received several replies to his heat question, as well as three very brief suggestions to think about the viewing angle issue, one of which he apparently replied to with, "Ah! I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the tip!" (Hard to be sure in the absence of quoting.) If you are really concerned by the off-topicness, you could stop contributing to it with your endless replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keyser soze View Post
FWIW I have my montitors up high so that I have to stretch my back upwards to avoid slouching. Oops just had to move mine up some more....
As with your tilt mount that doesn't change the vertical viewing angle, I have no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds uncomfortable. You know, when I said last time, "If it doesn't change the vertical viewing angle, I don't understand what it does," that was a request for clarification. I even followed it by describing what I understand "tilt" to mean, so that you would know for sure what I was talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by keyser soze View Post
ktkelly, thanks, I though maybe I was a crazy b-hole there for a minute. I also though I was dumb for not being able to work out some of those sentences. I am just as guilty as anyone for making sentences (I love me some run-ons) that are hard to follow but at least they make sense after a few readings.
I wonder, were you "a crazy b-hole" (whatever that means) when you said, "I do not understand all of the wording but I think we agree. I don't want one there and neither do you. I don't think we need to argue about it anymore." If you can find where I "argued" about this in my reply to you, I'd love to see it. I merely fleshed out my earlier comments, and the only thing for you to respond to was my statement that I didn't know what you meant by a tilt mount that doesn't change the vertical viewing angle. Sadly, you didn't respond to that, but instead replied with this guff, which is looking more and more like a reversal of your earlier statement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by keyser soze View Post
I'll do some calculations tomorrow at work to see just how "ridiculous" the angles are when viewing a TV over a average FP. I bet they are within a few degrees of THX and SMPTE standards.
The above-FP cabinets I was seeing in new construction were about five feet above floor level, and that is a crazy height to mount a TV that will be viewed from normal seating. I don't need to perform a calculation to know I'm right; all I have to do is look at the large painting hanging above my mantle and imagine my TV there or visit a friend who made the mistake I avoided.


Quote:
Originally Posted by keyser soze View Post
You know, I just thought to myself, "Self, why in God's name would they put those first 10-20 rown in a movie theater?" Given, you spend less time in a movie theater than you do in your living, great or rec room but still.
How random. A movie theater builds those seats because it knows that it can sometimes fill them with people who care more about the social experience than enjoying the film, and those people buy tickets and popcorn, which increases the theater's profit. As some sort of A/V tech, I hope you aspire to relevant goals for your clients.


Quote:
Originally Posted by keyser soze View Post
In the end some people actually consider decor more important than A/V. That's why my company can sell "invisible" speakers for exorbitant amounts of money that dont even sound that good. :shrug:
And what did I say last time? "Of course, it's up to the individual to determine the trade-offs that make sense for him." I hope you explain those trade-offs to your customers. If you save them from making a mistake, they will thank you for it, instead of cursing you later for expending the least effort possible and not making them aware of things they may not have thought of. Sadly, it appears you don't understand the trade-offs or can't discuss them without turning things into a personal attack.
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Old 05-30-2007, 12:27 PM   #24
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


Quote:
Originally Posted by keyser soze View Post
ok, will this put this to bed? Probably not but here it is anyway.

calculate all you want, 36 degrees for THX and 30 for SMPTE

If my 9th grade geometry skills serve me correctly (very good chance they don't edited to add my worthless memory caused a "traingle calculator" google search )

a TV that's 6 ft AFF (horizontal centerline of course) being viewed from 10 feet away (we'll say a 60" tv) yields a viewing angle of... wait for it..... 30.964 degrees!!!!!! :wipes sweat from forehead:

and while I was searching I found this nifty looking spreadsheet that I have not tested yet.

:throws both arms straight up in the air and walks away:
Oh good grief, you were serious! For starters, the calculator you linked to is talking about horizontal viewing angle, not vertical; a good clue is that it has no field in which you can enter the viewing height. Now suppose you correct this huge, glaringly obvious mistake and find it "within spec". Do you really think it guarantees comfortable viewing? It does not! All it means is that it conforms to a set of parameters defined by some standard ("The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from."), and you have to understand how those parameters were chosen, when they are valid, etc etc etc. For example, the page you linked to is talking about movie theaters, which are not a close approximation to most living rooms. If you don't understand all this, you cannot correctly interpret any results you are able to calculate. Finally, you will be considered a fool or worse if you tell someone who has to crane his neck to view his poorly positioned TV that your calculations prove that he doesn't.
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Old 05-30-2007, 12:53 PM   #25
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


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Originally Posted by tima2381 View Post

I don't need to perform a calculation to know I'm right

From this statement it becomes obvious that you won't let the facts get in the way.

If a room is so small that you're sitting very, very close to that fireplace, a TV over the fireplace wouldn't make much sense, while other rooms that allow for the seating to be further back, a TV over the fireplace makes perfect sense.

You would agree that the distance to the TV would alter the viewing angle wouldn't you?

Or is it that you object to the TV being over the fireplace in any circumstance?


To the orginal poster:

I would hang a painting at the height YOUR TV would be at, and sit in a chair at the distance YOUR room would allow for. Then YOU can make YOUR determination of whether or not this is a good idea.

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Old 05-30-2007, 02:22 PM   #26
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


Quote:
the calculator you linked to is talking about horizontal viewing angle, not vertical
I didn't feel like spending my morning looking up all of that so I just grabbed the first thing I saw. So if you are laying on your side on the couch and the TV is mounted vertically it will be fine. Whatever.

Wasn't really worth that much time.

Whatever. The horse is still dead no matter which of us is beating it.

The only reason I started replying to your post is the blanket statement...

Quote:
Don't do it.
I should have stopped after post #12

Quote:
As some sort of A/V tech, I hope you aspire to relevant goals for your clients.
That's the problem, I'm no longer some sort of A/V tech, now I'm some sort of system designer. That gives me access to the internet and free time to waste. Before this I was some sort of Project Manager and some sort of Operations Manager.

:turns and walks away:
seriously, don't bother with me anymore, I'll be watching for new A/V threads instead of this... whatever this is.
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:28 PM   #27
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ktkelly View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tima2381 View Post
I don't need to perform a calculation to know I'm right
From this statement it becomes obvious that you won't let the facts get in the way.
This is what I actually said:

"I don't need to perform a calculation to know I'm right; all I have to do is look at the large painting hanging above my mantle and imagine my TV there or visit a friend who made the mistake I avoided."

The fact that you would clip the explanatory clause to construct your strawman further proves what I concluded from your first reply to me. I expanded on the calculation idea in my most recent reply:

"Finally, you will be considered a fool or worse if you tell someone who has to crane his neck to view his poorly positioned TV that your calculations prove that he doesn't."

Your deceitful clipping doesn't alter the truth of what I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktkelly View Post
If a room is so small that you're sitting very, very close to that fireplace, a TV over the fireplace wouldn't make much sense, while other rooms that allow for the seating to be further back, a TV over the fireplace makes perfect sense.

You would agree that the distance to the TV would alter the viewing angle wouldn't you?
For the sake of argument, assume the center of the TV is 72" above the floor, and the seated "eye height" is roughly 40". (The TV height is a low estimate for the new construction I've seen around here, but I measured the eye height on my couch.) Per conventional wisdom, I'd prefer the center of the TV to be at my eye height or just below, which it is for my TV, which is placed on a typical Sony stand. Moving further and further away from the above-the-FP TV will make the vertical viewing angle less and less unacceptable as it compromises the viewing distance in the process. As an experiment, moving 25' away didn't help to an appreciable extent in the described scenario; I still have to crane my neck to view the center of the display, and 25' away is entirely too great a viewing distance. The only benefit is that the TV would clear the furniture, table lamps, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktkelly View Post
Or is it that you object to the TV being over the fireplace in any circumstance?
If it would compromise my viewing experience, I wouldn't want it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktkelly View Post
To the orginal poster:

I would hang a painting at the height YOUR TV would be at, and sit in a chair at the distance YOUR room would allow for. Then YOU can make YOUR determination of whether or not this is a good idea.
I'd guess he has sense enough to figure that out for himself.
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:51 PM   #28
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


Okay, I've got it. You can't look up?



You use a stepladder to look at the painting mounted so very high on the wall, over the fireplace?

Take planes rides so you can look DOWN on the clouds?

Sit on the roof so you can look DIRECTLY at the trees?

Don't have, or need, a sunroof on your car since you can never look up?


As I see it, your world is just a downer....




On a serious note. As for that "deceitful clipping" thing?

I tend to clip that which is utterly useless. It's called cutting to the chase in some circles.....
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Old 05-30-2007, 10:24 PM   #29
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


Wow, this thread has been busy! FWIW, the sofa will be about 12' from the fireplace (and there will also be bar height seating behind that).

Oh, and the Wii will probably be on the upstairs TV.

Truly, the heat that has been generated on this thread has me just . It's just a TV! If our necks start to hurt, we'll move it.
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:23 PM   #30
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Flatscreen over the fireplace? Is this really a good idea?


You will love your new setup. Consider the tilt mount but try to look at one in a store before you buy it. Some people don't like that fact that it sticks out off of the wall more than a flat mount. If the viewers will be off to the side a lot, consider an articulating arm bracket. They are expensive but worth it if you need it. If you need an arm, consider a Chief. They make brackets that are built like tanks. Cheap brackets are, well, cheap. You get what you pay for in that department.

The arm will be even more "ugly" over the nice FP so if you don't need it, don't even bother.

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