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Old 08-28-2014, 05:23 AM   #16
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Well this is certainly religulous....


IMHO, this should not have been tried in a court of law of the land, this is where separation of state and religion apply, IMHO. This should have come before their church and dealt with.

I do agree that it is hard to believe some of the things some "religions" believe. Do I believe in God, with every fiber of my being. Do I believe that God created this earth and every single atom in the universe, with every fiber of my being.

Am I going to run to the government and get them to MAKE you see things God's way, no. You are a free agent, you can believe anything you wish to believe, that is your choice, you can live any way you wish, that is your choice. The government has no business telling we the people, what we MUST accept when it is against our beliefs and that includes you and your beliefs.

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Old 08-28-2014, 09:02 AM   #17
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Well this is certainly religulous....


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IMHO, this should not have been tried in a court of law of the land, this is where separation of state and religion apply, IMHO. This should have come before their church and dealt with.
Well, if we went down that road, we could expect to see people being beheaded in the streets or tied to poles and stoned to death..

Sorry BigJim, this isn't Iran.. And you should be glad that we don't let institutions (churches) that base their reasoning and belief systems on unfounded mythology dole out the justice.

Quote:
I do agree that it is hard to believe some of the things some "religions" believe.
It's hard to believe that the core of Pluto is made of cheese too.. But have faith my son! For one day, Pluto will come closer to the earth and show us the power of cheese!

Quote:
Do I believe in God, with every fiber of my being. Do I believe that God created this earth and every single atom in the universe, with every fiber of my being.
Why? Seriously.. I'm not mocking you or anything.. But why? Why do you believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence to support your conclusion? Think about it very hard.. Do your parents believe? Did you go to church at an early age? Do you see something that would indicate there is a god? And since you seem to advocate to the power of the church dishing out the justice, I would have to reason that your belief system is based on teachings of the church, yes?
Since the church's teachings stem from the bible, then one could reason that the bible is what you believe in..yes??

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The government has no business telling we the people, what we MUST accept when it is against our beliefs and that includes you and your beliefs.
So how do you feel about tying a kid to a telephone pole and stoning her to death? Or beheading someone in the street because they violated some religious doctrine and had premarital sex? Or how do you feel about someone getting into an automobile accident and letting their normally perfectly healthy child die because they don't believe in blood transfusions?

You're really ok with all that just because someone bases their reasoning and belief systems on the absurd practices of those who come before them?

Cutting someone's hair because they stepped outside the communities accepted rules is a fairly minor assault.... It should have been punished in proportion but it wasn't.. I think the judge looked at that and extrapolated a scenario of escalation and decided to put a stop to it right there.. but 15 years is ridiculous..
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:32 AM   #18
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Well this is certainly religulous....


I got to ask Paul. Why, when you mention religion you attempt to attack it or anyone who has religious beliefs? Can you accept the simple fact that others do not believe the same as you? A simple yes or no answer will do.
You seem to have an anger issue when it comes to religion. Almost as if it consumes you
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Old 08-28-2014, 10:29 AM   #19
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Well this is certainly religulous....


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Well, if we went down that road, we could expect to see people being beheaded in the streets or tied to poles and stoned to death..

Not in the church I am a member.

Sorry BigJim, this isn't Iran.. And you should be glad that we don't let institutions (churches) that base their reasoning and belief systems on unfounded mythology dole out the justice.

And I hope it never gets like Iran here in the USA.

It's hard to believe that the core of Pluto is made of cheese too.. But have faith my son! For one day, Pluto will come closer to the earth and show us the power of cheese!



Why? Seriously.. I'm not mocking you or anything.. But why? Why do you believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence to support your conclusion? Think about it very hard.. Do your parents believe? Did you go to church at an early age? Do you see something that would indicate there is a god? And since you seem to advocate to the power of the church dishing out the justice, I would have to reason that your belief system is based on teachings of the church, yes?
Since the church's teachings stem from the bible, then one could reason that the bible is what you believe in..yes??

How can you understand the birth of a child, or how the human body is designed, for just a slight example, and believe it just happened out of the clear blue sky. If you can't look around in this world, and see things that just didn't happen on their own, and still say what you just said, that is unreal. How do you believe all of this complex world happened? And you ask me seriously?

So how do you feel about tying a kid to a telephone pole and stoning her to death? Or beheading someone in the street because they violated some religious doctrine and had premarital sex? Or how do you feel about someone getting into an automobile accident and letting their normally perfectly healthy child die because they don't believe in blood transfusions?

No, how do you feel about this garbage. If you think all who believe in God think this way, here is a news flash for you, some of us don't. Sure there are some people who believe this way but they sure don't know the God I worship.

You're really ok with all that just because someone bases their reasoning and belief systems on the absurd practices of those who come before them?

And you got this from what I said?

Cutting someone's hair because they stepped outside the communities accepted rules is a fairly minor assault.... It should have been punished in proportion but it wasn't.. I think the judge looked at that and extrapolated a scenario of escalation and decided to put a stop to it right there.. but 15 years is ridiculous..
Like I said, it is hard to believe some of the things some "religions" believe.
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Old 08-28-2014, 10:44 AM   #20
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Well this is certainly religulous....


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I got to ask Paul. Why, when you mention religion you attempt to attack it or anyone who has religious beliefs? Can you accept the simple fact that others do not believe the same as you? A simple yes or no answer will do.
When you have a political debate with someone, are you attacking them personally? or are you attacking their political reasoning?

Does someone who attacks Obama or democrats in a political debate have anger issues? Can they, or should they, accept that he has a different belief in how things should be done? Or should they speak out about it in hopes of affecting change and encouraging others in such matters?

Political debates happen everywhere all the time and they seem to be acceptable subject matter even though they also, unfortunately, always come with personal attacks and religious foundations.

People apply their own flavor of logic to almost all political issues but when it comes to religion, the logic is left out..

Quote:
You seem to have an anger issue when it comes to religion. Almost as if it consumes you
While the effects of religion do anger me, it is absolutely no different than the responses we see over political differences.

So to answer your question.. or at least the question I think your asking:
Yes, I can accept a person with different beliefs.... but, no, I can not accept the ideology some people believe in.

I would guess that what you might be perceiving as anger is either my own passionate intensity or the common reactions and reluctance of others to question core belief foundations.

Now that I've explained myself to you, I certainly hope you're not considering my membership here for stirring controversy in the controversy forum.. If you are, please draw me a line and I will respect it.. But then, what would be the point of the controversy board?
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Old 08-28-2014, 10:57 AM   #21
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Well this is certainly religulous....


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Originally Posted by PaulBob View Post
..... Why do you believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence to support your conclusion? Think about it very hard.. Do your parents believe? Did you go to church at an early age? Do you see something that would indicate there is a god?
I've had people ask the same question of me. I have to ask ...

Do you have evidence to support your conclusion that God does NOT exist?
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:00 AM   #22
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Well this is certainly religulous....


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Yes, I can accept a person with different beliefs.... but, no, I can not accept the ideology some people believe in.
But, you paint all religion with the same brush as the zealots.

Why draw the line there? Do you go to a doctor? Do you paint them bad because of the Jack Kevorkian's in the world? Of course you don't. Why do you do this with religion?
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:21 AM   #23
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Well this is certainly religulous....


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Originally Posted by BigJim View Post
Originally Posted by PaulBob
Well, if we went down that road, we could expect to see people being beheaded in the streets or tied to poles and stoned to death..

Not in the church I am a member.

But yours is not the only belief system.. if we allow your church to dole out justice, we must allow other churches the same. Do you think that would work?

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How can you understand the birth of a child, or how the human body is designed, for just a slight example, and believe it just happened out of the clear blue sky. If you can't look around in this world, and see things that just didn't happen on their own, and still say what you just said, that is unreal. How do you believe all of this complex world happened? And you ask me seriously?
Everything seems complicated and mysterious until it is understood.. Just because we lack knowledge of something does not infer the existence of a god.
Evolution did not happen just out of "the clear blue sky".. Very far from it..
In fact, many of the things that you interpret as "just happening on their own" are clearly understood and can be replicated synthetically. Maybe not everything, not yet anyhow.. but most or many.
Just because John Doe doesn't understand the science behind something they see, doesn't mean that it is not understood by science.. And frequently, John Doe doesn't even know that science has already explained it away because John Doe doesn't keep up with scientific discoveries.
I have a friend who is (was) a creationist.. He firmly believed all the creationist theories.. Earth was 10,000 years old, Adam and Eve, etc etc.. His favorite argument was "the missing link".. no way did monkeys evolved into humans and why we could never find "the missing link"..

Then I showed him prehistoric Lucy and about a dozen other finds similar to Lucy and how the missing link was no more. In fact, we had all the links and then some.. We even had links to spare!

Ya.. he still believes in God,,, but he's no longer a creationist and he's now starting to question everything..



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Originally Posted by BigJim View Post

No, how do you feel about this garbage. If you think all who believe in God think this way, here is a news flash for you, some of us don't. Sure there are some people who believe this way but they sure don't know the God I worship.
No.. I seriously doubt you personally believe in most of those ridiculously brutal religious things.. But I was trying to point out that your belief system is not the only one and that if it is logical and acceptable for you to believe in your form of religion, than what is to say that someone else's form of religion is any more wrong or right than yours? Extrapolating that line of reasoning, if you think your beliefs should be accepted, then you must also believe that others beliefs should be accepted.. if others believe in those brutal things, then its reasonable to think that you accept them as part of others belief.
Its a slippery slope that leads to some disturbing consequences..


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Old 08-28-2014, 11:29 AM   #24
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Well this is certainly religulous....


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Do you have evidence to support your conclusion that God does NOT exist?
Your question is a fallacy in a form called "Argument from Ignorance"..

You can read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

(Click page down key three times and you'll see it)

I could say to you that the core of Pluto is made of cheese.. Do you have evidence to support your conclusion that it is not?
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:45 AM   #25
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Well this is certainly religulous....


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But, you paint all religion with the same brush as the zealots.
The zealots are the unfortunate byproduct, a symptom or consequence of a flawed ideology system.

Quote:
Why draw the line there? Do you go to a doctor? Do you paint them bad because of the Jack Kevorkian's in the world? Of course you don't. Why do you do this with religion?
I do not go to doctors that practice medicine based on mythology.. I go to doctors that practice medicine based on science..

And why bring Kevorkian into this? He was a compassionate doctor...
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Old 08-28-2014, 12:23 PM   #26
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Well this is certainly religulous....


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Originally Posted by TheEplumber View Post
I got to ask Paul. Why, when you mention religion you attempt to attack it or anyone who has religious beliefs? Can you accept the simple fact that others do not believe the same as you? A simple yes or no answer will do.
You seem to have an anger issue when it comes to religion. Almost as if it consumes you
Guess that ain't going to happen.
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Old 08-28-2014, 12:32 PM   #27
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Well this is certainly religulous....


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Guess that ain't going to happen.
Not much for reading?
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Old 08-28-2014, 02:52 PM   #28
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Well this is certainly religulous....


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But yours is not the only belief system.. if we allow your church to dole out justice, we must allow other churches the same. Do you think that would work?

The church I am a member of is not in the business of doling any type of punishment for any injustices. We are not in the judging business.


Everything seems complicated and mysterious until it is understood.. Just because we lack knowledge of something does not infer the existence of a god.

By the same token, the same holds true for God's existence. Just because one doesn't understand God, does not mean He does not exist.

Evolution did not happen just out of "the clear blue sky".. Very far from it..
In fact, many of the things that you interpret as "just happening on their own" are clearly understood and can be replicated synthetically. Maybe not everything, not yet anyhow.. but most or many.

I would be interested to hear your version of how everything came to exist. This is kinda like a story I heard one time about the devil telling God he could do anything God could do. God said, ok, create a man. The devil reached down and took a handful of dirt to which God replied, no no, use your own dirt.

Now if these men, who believe they can create anything at all, must use the things necessary out of thin air, they can not use the materials God put here, they have to create the materials to create what ever they wish.



Just because John Doe doesn't understand the science behind something they see, doesn't mean that it is not understood by science.. And frequently, John Doe doesn't even know that science has already explained it away because John Doe doesn't keep up with scientific discoveries.

Here is something to think about. Science is the study of things that God already put here. One thing scientist can not nor ever will produce is "life". Oh they can use the things God put here and compile the DNA God has provided to assemble and simulate something but not in pure form without use of materials already here.

If a doctor went through every atom of your body, one at a time, he could not see what life actually is, nor could he find "you" in there anywhere because "you" are not an inanimate object, "you" are a spirit living life in a fleshly body.


I have a friend who is (was) a creationist.. He firmly believed all the creationist theories.. Earth was 10,000 years old, Adam and Eve, etc etc.. His favorite argument was "the missing link".. no way did monkeys evolved into humans and why we could never find "the missing link"..

Then I showed him prehistoric Lucy and about a dozen other finds similar to Lucy and how the missing link was no more. In fact, we had all the links and then some.. We even had links to spare!

Ya.. he still believes in God,,, but he's no longer a creationist and he's now starting to question everything..




If this is true, why are there still monkeys, did some of them miss the boat? Oh and what did the monkeys evolve from?


No.. I seriously doubt you personally believe in most of those ridiculously brutal religious things.. But I was trying to point out that your belief system is not the only one and that if it is logical and acceptable for you to believe in your form of religion,

than what is to say that someone else's form of religion is any more wrong or right than yours?

Because God is "right", where do atheists get their sense of "right" and wrong from? If there is no higher power that is "right" to be modeled after, then there is nothing to base right or wrong on. So then there must not be a right or wrong in the atheist world, if so explain how, and who do they attribute their morals to.


You see, if you are right and there is no God, when we die you have nothing to worry about and I would have nothing to worry about. But if there is a God, when I die I have nothing to worry about, but you do.

Extrapolating that line of reasoning, if you think your beliefs should be accepted, then you must also believe that others beliefs should be accepted.. if others believe in those brutal things, then its reasonable to think that you accept them as part of others belief.
Its a slippery slope that leads to some disturbing consequences..


No we don't accept evil in any kind of form and neither does God. What I believe means absolutely nothing to anyone but me as I can't live for anyone or die for anyone other than myself.

I don't just believe in God, I believe God! He has delivered His doctrine to all mankind. It is your choice personally, whether to accept or reject God and His teachings. Man without God is nothing, God without man is still God. I will choose God over man any day.
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Old 08-28-2014, 05:09 PM   #29
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Well this is certainly religulous....


First you say this:
Quote:
IMHO, this should not have been tried in a court of law of the land, this is where separation of state and religion apply, IMHO. This should have come before their church and dealt with.
Now you say this:
Quote:
The church I am a member of is not in the business of doling any type of punishment for any injustices. We are not in the judging business.

Those two statements seem contrary to each other.. In the fist, you are implying that it is the churches business to administer justice..
Then a few posts later, you claim your church doesn't do that..

HUH????

Quote:
By the same token, the same holds true for God's existence. Just because one doesn't understand God, does not mean He does not exist.

Is this fallacy week or something? The other poster guy just tried to pull this stuff... Your fallacy argument seems to combine multiple fallacies.. I'm not sure if this falls to a fallacy called "Proving Non-Existence" or
the fallacy called "Circular Reasoning".. or a combination of both but it is certainly an illogical statement..
I'm going to assume you have the education to recognize them so therefor I will ask that you refrain from using fallacies..


Quote:
I would be interested to hear your version of how everything came to exist. This is kinda like a story I heard one time about the devil telling God he could do anything God could do. God said, ok, create a man. The devil reached down and took a handful of dirt to which God replied, no no, use your own dirt.

I would be interested in hearing it too!! But science doesn't have those answers yet.. Just because we don't have all the answers does not infer the existence of a god.

But, once again, as is the case in mathematics, you have to apply the same thing to both sides.. so, just for fun.. Where did God come from??

Quote:
Now if these men, who believe they can create anything at all, must use the things necessary out of thin air, they can not use the materials God put here, they have to create the materials to create what ever they wish.

Out of thin air eh? Well.. lets see how that works out.. Since air contains water vapor, and since water contains Hydrogen, technically, we could use that hydrogen to create any other element though nucleosynthesis.. Therby creating anything we want from the "thin air"...

Quote:
Here is something to think about. Science is the study of things that God already put here. One thing scientist can not nor ever will produce is "life". Oh they can use the things God put here and compile the DNA God has provided to assemble and simulate something but not in pure form without use of materials already here.

If a doctor went through every atom of your body, one at a time, he could not see what life actually is, nor could he find "you" in there anywhere because "you" are not an inanimate object, "you" are a spirit living life in a fleshly body.

Now you're just stuck in a hole you can't get yourself out of.. That's really sad.. Your statements absolutely scream " I WAS INDOCTRINATED" in the most intensive possible way.. Your very thought processing is centered around something that doesn't exist and you can't seem to unwrap from it even to argue for it.

Quote:
If this is true, why are there still monkeys, did some of them miss the boat? Oh and what did the monkeys evolve from?
Whew! That's better.. Why wouldn't monkeys still be here?
Did you kind of skip the basic science classes in school? All this was explained in detail. Albeit a very valid question, its also very basic.. This is like 8th grade science stuff...


But, so long as we are on the subject, lets take a more advanced scientific look into it.. Monkeys have 24 base pairs of Chromosomes while humans have only 23 base pairs.

So, if we evolved from Monkeys, how is it we seem to be missing a base pair (two) chromosomes?
The answer is that they fused and the Telomeres and Centromeres within the chromosomes are there to prove it.. We even know which exact chromosomes did the fusing even though it happened eons ago...


Quote:
Because God is "right", where do atheists get their sense of "right" and wrong from? If there is no higher power that is "right" to be modeled after, then there is nothing to base right or wrong on. So then there must not be a right or wrong in the atheist world, if so explain how, and who do they attribute their morals to.

Right and wrong are abstract principles that do not exist in reality... The fact that you reference them as if they were given to us seems to indicate you have little experience in other cultures on this planet.
What you view as right maybe viewed as wrong by another culture.. and, what you view as wrong, might be viewed as right..
Your ideas of right and wrong and morality in your little world are but a tiny spec of sand in the planetary picture. Granted, you are just following the larger western culture, but that doesn't change the answer.
As for the most basic of "right or wrong" behaviors, that came from simple evolution. We learned to cooperate with each other to perform tasks and achieve goals that would not be possible alone. As man evolved, we cemented more and more "rules of cooperation".. But even to this day, those rules change as you traverse the globe and encounter different cultures.
The fact that you don't recognize this could be the subject of an entirely new thread!

Quote:
You see, if you are right and there is no God, when we die you have nothing to worry about and I would have nothing to worry about. But if there is a God, when I die I have nothing to worry about, but you do.

Oh crap.. you started doing so well.. This fallacy is called "Appeal to consequences" and it is one of the most popular fallacies because its roots are literally in our genes. In fact, it is so popular that I had once considered adding it as a fourth rule to my three current rules for why people believe..

I choose not to create a fourth rule because it falls under rule number 2.. INDOCTRINATION.. part of which instills fear of punishment for non compliance.

Hey, this is basic marketing 101 stuff.. Just watch TV commercials for a while and count how many times the advertisers appeal to your fear of something in order to sell you a product.

I've always been fascinated by how folks don't see right though this stuff...

Now.. to address your statement on this issue with some common sense.
So what happens to the believers of all the other religions who put their beliefs and faith in a different god? Are you so arrogant as to think that your flavor of religion is the correct one in light of all the others that exist?

From another perspective.. An Atheist makes a billion dollar fortune and goes around giving his money away to the sick and poor.. This person spends and devotes their entire life to helping others.. but absolutely does not believe in any god..
So what happens to him?

The next guy, absolutely believes in God with all his heart.. He reads from the bible while raping little girls and prays for forgiveness after every person he shoots or carjacks.. He hands out drugs to young children while on his way to church on Sunday where he simply repents for his sins.
So what happens to him?

See how absurd it is?



Quote:
don't just believe in God, I believe God! He has delivered His doctrine to all mankind. It is your choice personally, whether to accept or reject God and His teachings. Man without God is nothing, God without man is still God. I will choose God over man any day.
Ya right! But when you break your leg or you have a heart attack, you run like a little girl to the nearest hospital were you ask them to use all their science to save your life.
If Christianity had their way, that science would have never existed in the first place.. Science use to be heresy according to the origins of your belief system.


So you say you "don't just believe in God, you Believe God!"... Really? Does he speak to you? What did God say and when did he say it? Did you record it with your iphone?

You say God is a "He"... as in a male? So that would indicate God is part of his own species?? Now that I could get on board with!!! Are we talking Romulans or Klingons here? Or something much bigger like a "Q" ??
And the absurdity continues unabated.
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Old 08-28-2014, 06:11 PM   #30
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Well this is certainly religulous....


PaulBob, you must give people space to breath...

I don't see many "zealots" here trying to push down your throat their god.
If they need one...let them have one (or many).

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