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Old 07-29-2014, 07:41 PM   #31
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Do unions hold any value?


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Unions are fine as long as their membership is optional.

When, however, you look at the membership and what they spend their dollars on and the fact that your membership is mandated in many applications, you find these massively leftist organizations that are as corrupt as the political system.

Get the money out of the political system and make union membership optional and I am okay with them.
I think WINDOWS ON WASH has the essence of the issue/problem answered.

Return (profit or earnings) to capital or labor can be easily resolved by free markets.

But we don't have free (true capitalist) markets... we have government intervention, (sometimes well intentioned... sometimes self serving).


There is nothing wrong with with a group of people getting together (UNION) to collectively sell their labor to capital (businesses). That is a freedom of a capitalist market.

All the ineffieciences and problems arise when they have an unfair/protected advantage artificially imposed (non-right-to work-governmental legislation).

I think goernments role should be to protect free markets, not meddle in them and alter them.

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Old 07-30-2014, 12:55 PM   #32
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Old 07-30-2014, 01:51 PM   #33
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Do unions hold any value?


"Governments" and what exactly does Govern mean, are influenced by special interests groups whether it be gun lobbies, big business ( don't want to pay taxes those rich dudes do they), military contractors and possibly Unions etc.

We live in a Democracy and while it is not perfect it is a HECK of a lot better than a military or religious dictatorship ( some African countries, Iran etc) or a Commie system in disguise (Rushya).

Therefore "Governments" will always vary in their design and what they do. Not sure we should or can expect wonders from them.
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:23 PM   #34
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Do unions hold any value?


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"Governments" and what exactly does Govern mean, are influenced by special interests groups whether it be gun lobbies, big business ( don't want to pay taxes those rich dudes do they), military contractors and possibly Unions etc.

We live in a Democracy and while it is not perfect it is a HECK of a lot better than a military or religious dictatorship ( some African countries, Iran etc) or a Commie system in disguise (Rushya).

Therefore "Governments" will always vary in their design and what they do. Not sure we should or can expect wonders from them.
Agreed.

We have to get the money out of DC for this to work and working in the government used to be a volunteer job where you went home to your real job after time served.

The fact that it is a lifetime appointment these days and they retire rich is a problem.

The Government is in way...way...way too much stuff now and days. It cannot effectively run all this stuff and that is showing.
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Old 07-30-2014, 04:53 PM   #35
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Do unions hold any value?


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"Governments" and what exactly does Govern mean, are influenced by special interests groups whether it be gun lobbies, big business ( don't want to pay taxes those rich dudes do they), military contractors and possibly Unions etc.
The unions are not a special interest group that "possibly" influence government. They are a HUGE special interest group that has a VERY STRONG influence on government!
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Old 07-30-2014, 05:38 PM   #36
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Well you can always appoint me to be Czar of North America. I will be nice and fair to all. ( And the cheque is in the mail ).
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Old 08-13-2014, 11:30 AM   #37
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There is nothing wrong with unions.. The problems are the laws which protect them.

America is all about the free market system... Its what everything is based on and if you take that away, it screws up everything else.

Unions are just fine so long as the companies that have to deal with them are free to fire anyone who doesn't show up to work.

However, when laws get passed that protect the unions and put the unions at an unfair negotiating advantage, then a headache becomes a major problem and you end up with organizations like the UAW who then destroy an entire industry out of greed.
I am a retired union member. Much of what people say they hate about unions I never saw in our union (IBEW) or any of the other trade unions. If a contractor doesn't want a union member who comes out of the hall, all they have to do is turn him (or her) away and back he (or she) goes. No questions asked. When it comes time for layoff, the contractor lays off who they want. No questions asked.

I've never seen any union member who was fired for good reason be protected by the union. I have seen the union step in and ask the contractor to reconsider but the contractor always has the last word.

Most of what I have seen from being a union member is the benefit of having a group of workers support the individual. A single employee has no clout with an employer. Look at the stagnant wages that are inching closer to minimum wages being the norm. That trend began when politicians started waging war on unions. And it's continuing today. Why? Because the fat cats who contribute to political war chests want lower wages, the end of pensions and employee paid healthcare so they can pocket the money. And politicians want their donations so they can get re-elected.

What baffles me the most about anti-union sentiment is when I hear non-union workers complaining how much union workers make. What they should be complaining about is they aren't making enough! If union contractors can make a profit while paying union wages (and they do) why can't non-union contractors pay their people the same? The only reason they don't is because there is no group supporting the worker. Instead contractors keep the profits.

The other thing unions are good for is to ensure the job is safe. My friend's son works for a non-union home builder. He's up 30' in the air on a plank that has no guard rail without fall protection. The company has one safety harness for a dozen employees but he's told not to ask for it because he'll get fired for starting trouble. You'd never see that on a union job. He's also been told not to ask for a raise and just be thankful he has a job. But he's not making enough to support even himself. BTW, when the owner shows up on the jobsite, he's driving his Ferrari.

When I retired, I had a pension, an annuity and lifetime healthcare waiting for me. Everyone who spends a few decades working their tail off doing work that breaks your body down like that deserves the same. But too many have nothing when they retire and have to rely on the government social services to get by. Yet those people they worked for all those years are fat and happy and no doubt complaining about paying too much SS and Medicare on their taxes. If it weren't for the workers who toil in the trenches for them, they would have nothing.

I'm all for higher wages, health care, pensions, and happy retirements for all. There was a time when this wasn't at all unusual, but today, it's a rarity. Instead of griping about someone having it better than you, we should be griping about not getting our fair share. And unions help you get that.
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Old 08-13-2014, 11:43 AM   #38
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The unions are not a special interest group that "possibly" influence government. They are a HUGE special interest group that has a VERY STRONG influence on government!
HA! The Koch brother alone pour more money into campaign coffers than all the unions combined. It's the billionaires and multi-millionaires who are the politician puppeteers. If you want to know who's influencing our politicians the most, pay attention to how they vote.

Special Interest? Are you saying the American workers are a special interest group? It's the uber-rich who are the special interest group not just influencing, but controlling our government
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Old 08-13-2014, 11:51 AM   #39
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HA! The Koch brother alone pour more money into campaign coffers than all the unions combined. It's the billionaires and multi-millionaires who are the politician puppeteers. If you want to know who's influencing our politicians the most, pay attention to how they vote.

Special Interest? Are you saying the American workers are a special interest group? It's the uber-rich who are the special interest group not just influencing, but controlling our government
That would be incorrect.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...ns-106520.html

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...88584031850026

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

I am not claiming that the billionaires don't have unreasonable influence on the nation's political system right now but to claim the unions don't wield a large ax is erroneous.
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Old 08-13-2014, 02:10 PM   #40
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That would be incorrect.

I am not claiming that the billionaires don't have unreasonable influence on the nation's political system right now but to claim the unions don't wield a large ax is erroneous.
Well they might argue you describing their influence as "unreasonable". SCOTUS did rule that money was speech so they have a lot of speaking to do.

But my comments are in regard to both reported and unreported campaign contributions. The Citizen's United ruling allowed for the creation of Super PACs. Now, under the present law, Political Action Committees are not required to divulge who the contributors are, what country they are citizens of or how much was donated, among other things. Some estimate Super PAC contributions far exceed regular campaign contributions, by a substantial amount. These estimates are based on how much money is spent during given campaigns vs. how much money in reported contributions.

And if you have a Super PAC and decide to end your campaign, you get to keep all the money, tax free if you do it right. That's why you saw most of the candidates in the last Presidential election "suspend" their campaign rather than dropping out.

Super PACs have changed the face of politics today. And not for the better.

Politicians vote based on who put the most money in their wallet. If the unions really did contribute as much as those linked articles claim, why are there so many politicians voting against them? And please don't tell me it's because they are following their heart.
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Old 08-13-2014, 02:56 PM   #41
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The AFP Super PAC gave somewhere around 125 million in that one article.

As I stated previously, the money in politics is not what was intended but the two are tied at the hips now.

To say that the Unions don't still throw around some heavy weight is inaccurate. The Federal workers union is huge and any collection of that many people and that much money is powerful.

The reason there is push back is because people in the private sector make less, on average, than people in the goverment sector now and take far more risk, lesser benefits, and less secure retirements.

You need only look at some of these negotiated private sector contracts to see that there are more than a handful that are well beyond any sustainability.
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Old 08-13-2014, 05:09 PM   #42
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Thing about unions is higher wages for all means higher prices for all..as prices are determined by labor cost and materials used which is also determined by the labor cost. Rent is now higher as your landlord needs more money to live just like you do so your rent goes up. Everything goes up.
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Old 08-13-2014, 05:25 PM   #43
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Higher prices also has to do with absolute greed on the part of corporations also. Just look at your cable and cell phone bill. The big companies like HDepot and their kin get together and can control the price of a 2x4 and drive up the market to anywhere they want as they don't actually compete with each other. Big companies like your Craft dinner have been slowly decreasing the amount you get but charging the same price. Same with juice companies. Now you get 950 ml instead of a full litre. Companies are greedy and will nickel and dime you to death with or without any union involvement.
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Old 08-13-2014, 05:46 PM   #44
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The reason you get a smaller portion for the same cost as it now costs more to produce that same product.
A corporation has the right to get rich its a big investment and many fail..most of the profit is by shear volume at a lower percentage profit..it is why a big company can sell for sell and the little guy goes out of bussiness.
Prices are determined by what people will pay. If a product has a high profit margin then another company comes along and undercuts the price. Eventually a medium is found with a profit margin and the new low price settles as the other refuses to lower the price anymore.
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Old 08-13-2014, 06:15 PM   #45
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I doubt we will ever live in a Utopian world.

Governments are greedy and corrupt. Politiician has 2 jobs. Get elected and re-elected and then he has his nose in the trough permanently and gets a nice fat pension. Do nothing on the first term and fly under the radar and get re-elected.

Corporations are greedy and will nickel and dime you to death and they hope the stupid people who do not notice the portions getting smaller will gladly buy the product as they can still afford it and who has time to read the fine print or notice.

Rich people don't want to or have to pay their share of taxes. Special interest groups buy votes and sway governments.

Governments are completely paranoid and spy on their citizens and the list goes on and on.

As Alfred E. Neuman would say "What me worry". Not much you can do except get stressed and sick if you do.
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