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Old 07-26-2014, 09:36 PM   #1
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Do unions hold any value?


Near impossible to ask this question locally.

Seems to me their are two sides, one side talks of the union like it is the best thing for everyone. The other side seems to hate the union for every reason imaginable.

One person I know makes much less than if he were in the union. Works much harder, and could be fired at any minute.
His boss is a real difficult guy to work with. He has not been laid off in 12 years, and gets free medical benefits. He claims the union guys only learn an individual aspect of the trade. In the big picture they are not real tradesmen because they are not well rounded. Another guy I know makes a good deal of money working a union job.

Much more than if he worked for a non union company. He was also not fired when he was caught doing something childish at work. His union does protect him. I know some unions out here offer no protection to their employes. I have a very mixed opinion on unions, be nice to get some more insight on other peoples dealings with the unions


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Old 07-26-2014, 09:46 PM   #2
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Do unions hold any value?


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Old 07-26-2014, 09:57 PM   #3
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Do unions hold any value?


There is nothing wrong with unions.. The problems are the laws which protect them.

America is all about the free market system... Its what everything is based on and if you take that away, it screws up everything else.

Unions are just fine so long as the companies that have to deal with them are free to fire anyone who doesn't show up to work.

However, when laws get passed that protect the unions and put the unions at an unfair negotiating advantage, then a headache becomes a major problem and you end up with organizations like the UAW who then destroy an entire industry out of greed.
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Old 07-27-2014, 06:37 AM   #4
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Do unions hold any value?


Unions are fine as long as their membership is optional.

When, however, you look at the membership and what they spend their dollars on and the fact that your membership is mandated in many applications, you find these massively leftist organizations that are as corrupt as the political system.

Get the money out of the political system and make union membership optional and I am okay with them.
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Old 07-27-2014, 08:28 AM   #5
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Do unions hold any value?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mj12 View Post
Near impossible to ask this question locally.

Seems to me their are two sides, one side talks of the union like it is the best thing for everyone. The other side seems to hate the union for every reason imaginable.

One person I know makes much less than if he were in the union. Works much harder, and could be fired at any minute.
His boss is a real difficult guy to work with. He has not been laid off in 12 years, and gets free medical benefits. He claims the union guys only learn an individual aspect of the trade. In the big picture they are not real tradesmen because they are not well rounded. Another guy I know makes a good deal of money working a union job.

Much more than if he worked for a non union company. He was also not fired when he was caught doing something childish at work. His union does protect him. I know some unions out here offer no protection to their employes. I have a very mixed opinion on unions, be nice to get some more insight on other peoples dealings with the unions
That's one of the problems, IMO. If you do something childish at work, your employer should have the option to fire your childish a$$. I bet he wasn't "kept on" because his boss just has a good heart. He was kept on because the company didn't feel like fighting with the overpowering union.
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Old 07-27-2014, 09:19 AM   #6
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Do unions hold any value?


The Union I was in we had one guy who did not want to belong. Technically he was in but he was allowed to give his dues to a charity. Doubt he would have got good results if he had any grievances to file and half the crew despised him. C'est la Vie.

Unions have their purpose. If it was not for them we would all still be working 10-12 hrs a day 6 days a week like back in the early Industrial era with no safety standards.

Greed, Sloth and Corruption is everywhere. In the Government, Police and Management fields and Unions. It is what it is.
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Old 07-27-2014, 12:46 PM   #7
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Do unions hold any value?


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Unions have their purpose. If it was not for them we would all still be working 10-12 hrs a day 6 days a week like back in the early Industrial era with no safety standards.

Greed, Sloth and Corruption is everywhere. In the Government, Police and Management fields and Unions. It is what it is.
This is not "The Jungle" era.

OSHA is more than around as is the EPA and EEOC.

I do work 6 days at 10-12 hours already but I am self employed.

We have long since passed the time when unions are a necessity. People should be allowed to unionize should they want to as well as states and areas should be right to work areas.
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Old 07-27-2014, 01:09 PM   #8
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Do unions hold any value?


Unions are useless. Public sector unions are criminal.



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Old 07-27-2014, 02:20 PM   #9
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Do unions hold any value?


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Originally Posted by yuri View Post
The Union I was in we had one guy who did not want to belong. Technically he was in but he was allowed to give his dues to a charity. Doubt he would have got good results if he had any grievances to file and half the crew despised him. C'est la Vie.

Unions have their purpose. If it was not for them we would all still be working 10-12 hrs a day 6 days a week like back in the early Industrial era with no safety standards.

Greed, Sloth and Corruption is everywhere. In the Government, Police and Management fields and Unions. It is what it is.
A lot of people do, that are in unions. Our Illinois Dept. of Corrections officers work 16-18 hour days, six to 7 day work weeks, before they take a day off. Not due to low manpower. But due to the politicians that are running IDOC.

Where I work. If there is OT being handed out. You have to volunteer for it. Usually it is when my unit that I am in, within the unit at the building itself. It is Data Entry work that causes it. Not due to not enough manpower or unwilling to do the work. We have a cycle every year, that we tend to get 5,000 to 8,000 prescription requests a day.

When I worked for a Regional Air Carrier. It was not uncommon for employees at various air fields, to work from 4:30 am to 6 pm, or 4:30 to noon, then come back around 5 pm and work until 1 am if there was a late flight. There was no OT hardly. Due to they figured a way around it, if you were covering shifts or swapping with co-workers. They would look at it that you had your 40 hours for the week, and you were working as the other worker under another 40 hour work week. Worse practice I have ever seen. Just for a company to save a buck.
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Old 07-27-2014, 02:40 PM   #10
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Do unions hold any value?


I see it is a lot different in Canada. When I was in the Union the max we could work was 48 hours in a week before they had to pay us OT. We were on some six week rotation as I was a shift Operating Engineer in a hospital. Working 12 hour shifts but that was due to mutual consent between the employer and us and Nurses did it also.

I think in general a lot of the safety standards and hours of work historically came about because of Unions as lots of people have the "40 hour work week" because of them. Everything has changed a LOT in the last few years with term positions, contract workers, etc etc so there is no real standard anymore.

Talking about Unions is like talking about religion or politics. Never going to settle those issues. Look at the Middle East. What a sheethole to live in and 2000 years later they are still fighting over religion.

My Dad was a Union steward in a meat packing plant and my Cousin works for the Post Office as management. Get those 2 together at XMas and start talking Union and everything is spoiled. I am like Switzerland, neutral.
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Old 07-27-2014, 03:18 PM   #11
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Do unions hold any value?


OH I could get into some deep discussion about this subject, but I've put a lot of my opinions behind me and time has healed many wounds on this subject. Case in point: I worked for a division of a major U.S. auto company for twenty-six (26) years in Georgia. Now Georgia is a right to work state so I exercised my right to work and never joined the union. Twenty years into my employment a high ranking union official comes to our plant and announces that our plant is to be closed. Not even our plant manager knew this until the union leader handed him a letter just before they called all the employees into a meeting. One of the conditions of the closure agreement was that ALL production employees were to be offered transfers to other plants with huge monetary incentives. NONE of the maintenance employees were to be offered transfers unless the maintenance employee had started out in production then they could "fall back" into a production job without incentives and would remain in a production job until retirement. When the time came to lock the gate at this plant the remaining nine (9) of us maintenance employees were offered jobs at a plant some seventy-five (75) miles away owned by the same company with no incentives. But we would remain employed. After six (6) years at this plant they announced that this plant would be closed also. They announced that they would start with employees with high seniority and high age, this is where I fit in. I thought I had hit the lottery or something. I was happy with the retirement monies, the medical benefits, etc. So I signed up and took the retirement. NO more driving 150 miles each day, six days a week. All goes well until this fine upstanding U.S. auto company goes bankrupt and asks the government for some "bail-out" money. Sure the gov't will bail them out, we cannot afford to let the U.S. auto industry go down. Well, later I learn that one of the agreements that the Federal Government, the auto company in question, and the union that had represented all of its union members in this bail-out agreement was that all employees who had not been members of this one specific union would NOT get their retirement after the bail-out. The Federal Government, the auto company, and the uinion all agreed to this. Now read this carefully: ALL employees of this company who WERE NOT represented by this ONE SPECIFIC union WOULD NOT get their retirement. ALL retired employees who had belonged to this one specific union would indeed get their full retirement. So instead of the $2200 (before taxes) I should have received monthly for retirement it was reduced to $49.50 per month before taxes. O.K. so I did not belong to any union and maybe this was right. But this agreement covered some 62,000 former employees at other plants who DID belong to a union. The problem was that they did not belong to this one specific union. And YES they had their pension cut the same as mine was. Actually there was one plant that had 2200 employees who had this happen to them. They got together and filed a class action lawsuit in Federal Court. On the day of the hearing all parties were present, attorney's for both sides were present and the judge entered the courtroom. The judge stated that he had read the brief's from the attorney's for both sides and he had no choice but to dismiss the case. Why? The judge stated: "This was a decision that was negotiated at the highest levels of the law of this United States of America. This agreement was negotiated by the White House, approved by the President of The United States, the parties involved and there is nothing I can do in regards to this case. Case dismissed. Has justice really be served?
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Old 07-27-2014, 04:51 PM   #12
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Do unions hold any value?


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The judge stated: "This was a decision that was negotiated at the highest levels of the law of this United States of America. This agreement was negotiated by the White House, approved by the President of The United States, the parties involved and there is nothing I can do in regards to this case. Case dismissed. Has justice really be served?
I'm not discounting that there may have be something shady going on but could the union have been offered the equivalent of picking which bowl of crap they wanted? i.e.; "You can have this settlement, which gives your choice of unions their pensions or you can try to get more and likely end up with absolutely nothing." That would be a hard choice for me to make, especially if the other side knew they had the backing of the government
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Old 07-27-2014, 08:43 PM   #13
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Do unions hold any value?


Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulBob View Post
There is nothing wrong with unions.. The problems are the laws which protect them.

America is all about the free market system... Its what everything is based on and if you take that away, it screws up everything else.

Unions are just fine so long as the companies that have to deal with them are free to fire anyone who doesn't show up to work.

However, when laws get passed that protect the unions and put the unions at an unfair negotiating advantage, then a headache becomes a major problem and you end up with organizations like the UAW who then destroy an entire industry out of greed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurman View Post
OH I could get into some deep discussion about this subject, but I've put a lot of my opinions behind me and time has healed many wounds on this subject. Case in point: I worked for a division of a major U.S. auto company for twenty-six (26) years in Georgia. Now Georgia is a right to work state so I exercised my right to work and never joined the union. Twenty years into my employment a high ranking union official comes to our plant and announces that our plant is to be closed. Not even our plant manager knew this until the union leader handed him a letter just before they called all the employees into a meeting. One of the conditions of the closure agreement was that ALL production employees were to be offered transfers to other plants with huge monetary incentives. NONE of the maintenance employees were to be offered transfers unless the maintenance employee had started out in production then they could "fall back" into a production job without incentives and would remain in a production job until retirement. When the time came to lock the gate at this plant the remaining nine (9) of us maintenance employees were offered jobs at a plant some seventy-five (75) miles away owned by the same company with no incentives. But we would remain employed. After six (6) years at this plant they announced that this plant would be closed also. They announced that they would start with employees with high seniority and high age, this is where I fit in. I thought I had hit the lottery or something. I was happy with the retirement monies, the medical benefits, etc. So I signed up and took the retirement. NO more driving 150 miles each day, six days a week. All goes well until this fine upstanding U.S. auto company goes bankrupt and asks the government for some "bail-out" money. Sure the gov't will bail them out, we cannot afford to let the U.S. auto industry go down. Well, later I learn that one of the agreements that the Federal Government, the auto company in question, and the union that had represented all of its union members in this bail-out agreement was that all employees who had not been members of this one specific union would NOT get their retirement after the bail-out. The Federal Government, the auto company, and the uinion all agreed to this. Now read this carefully: ALL employees of this company who WERE NOT represented by this ONE SPECIFIC union WOULD NOT get their retirement. ALL retired employees who had belonged to this one specific union would indeed get their full retirement. So instead of the $2200 (before taxes) I should have received monthly for retirement it was reduced to $49.50 per month before taxes. O.K. so I did not belong to any union and maybe this was right. But this agreement covered some 62,000 former employees at other plants who DID belong to a union. The problem was that they did not belong to this one specific union. And YES they had their pension cut the same as mine was. Actually there was one plant that had 2200 employees who had this happen to them. They got together and filed a class action lawsuit in Federal Court. On the day of the hearing all parties were present, attorney's for both sides were present and the judge entered the courtroom. The judge stated that he had read the brief's from the attorney's for both sides and he had no choice but to dismiss the case. Why? The judge stated: "This was a decision that was negotiated at the highest levels of the law of this United States of America. This agreement was negotiated by the White House, approved by the President of The United States, the parties involved and there is nothing I can do in regards to this case. Case dismissed. Has justice really be served?
Thurman.... I mean this honest/nice/respectfull.... but for us older F's, could you put in some paragraphs.
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Old 07-27-2014, 09:05 PM   #14
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Do unions hold any value?


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This agreement was negotiated by the White House, approved by the President of The United States, the parties involved and there is nothing I can do in regards to this case. Case dismissed. Has justice really be served?
No.

I am sorry to hear of your pension being eliminated.

The fact that the UAW workers had their pensions preserved is criminal.
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Old 07-28-2014, 07:55 AM   #15
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Do unions hold any value?


"MTN"--You are correct, I could have and should have split this into paragraphs. When this subject comes up my blood boils. I apologize. "Windows"--Actually, just recently two U.S. Senators have called for an investigation of this agreement. Their investigation is based on two factors, 1) The number of former employees of GM subsidiaries and/or divisions and the amount of white collar workers who belonged to a white collar union other than the UAW. With the white collar workers counted in this the number of retirees losing their pensions is over 100,00 ex-employees. Personally I doubt anything will come out of this "investigation" by a Senate panel.

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