water leaking through brick chimney

fqp25 · 09-23-2006, 07:38 PM

From the interior picture it looks as if there is no step flashing. This should between each layer of shingles, then covered by the counterflashing. Can you peel back the shingles a little bit to see if there is any baby-tins.

quigleybmd · 09-24-2006, 08:06 PM

1. Yes, the shorter stainless steel cover over that flue is a combination
damper/cover.

2. Yes, the cricket was original (although it was partially rebuilt when
the roof was just redone ... apparently it had some water damage/rot).
The dimensions are the same as the original one.

3. I'd like to do all 3 things suggested .. flashing under the crown,
and crown extending beyond the chimney edge; but I haven't been able to get a mason lined up yet. The flue seams seemed to be pretty
well sealed, but I thought some more caulk there couldn't hurt anything.

4. Water WAS getting in around the chimney (exact same places) before the roof was replaced. This has been an ongoing problem for >20 years. I had the chimney totally rebuilt about 3 years ago because it was in pretty bad shape, and I thought that must have been the source of the problem. But the new chimney didn't seem to help. In fact, it got even worse with the new chimney - and I was convinced it was because they had screwed up the flashing. It was almost time for a new roof anyway, so when I just had that done, I thought the new flashing, ice shield, etc.. would solve the problem once and for all. It hasn't.

5. I don't know about the 2 in. of flashing showing under that front right shingle. I think there is more flashing that extends out further
from the chimney, and it's covered by shingles. I'm pretty sure they
didn't skimp on the flashing. But I'm not a roofer, and I wasn't home when they did it. The leaking is all around the chimney, including at the back/top. So I don't thing what's showing at the front is consequential. The roofer who did the job is pretty well regarded - he's been around for > 30 years, and has a good reputation & good references. He's definitely not a fly-by-night kind of guy. And he's convinced the roofing/flashing is solid.

You can't believe how frustrating this has been.

Thanks for your suggestions.

redline · 09-24-2006, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quigleybmd

2. Yes, the cricket was original (although it was partially rebuilt when
the roof was just redone ... apparently it had some water damage/rot).
The dimensions are the same as the original one.

4. Water WAS getting in around the chimney (exact same places) before the roof was replaced. This has been an ongoing problem for >20 years. I had the chimney totally rebuilt about 3 years ago because it was in pretty bad shape, and I thought that must have been the source of the problem. But the new chimney didn't seem to help. In fact, it got even worse with the new chimney - and I was convinced it was because they had screwed up the flashing. It was almost time for a new roof anyway, so when I just had that done, I thought the new flashing, ice shield, etc.. would solve the problem once and for all. It hasn't.

You can't believe how frustrating this has been.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Ask the roofer what material is under the shingles on the cricket? (felt paper or other material?)

Ask the roofer what is the slope of the cricket? (2/12, 4/12, 6/12...)

You have two flues- is one for a furnace/water heater and another for a fireplace?

If the old chimney was leaking would the previous cricket get damaged?

Is the chimney getting water on the other side of the it inside the attic or is the water just on one side of the chimney in the attic?

It sounds like the water is either coming from the top of the chimney or the cricket. You could do one of two things as a process of elimination. You could turn off all appliances that vent into the two flues just prior to a rain storm and them put a plastic tarp just over the entire crown (top) of the chimney. If the water still enters then the chimney crown is not the problem. Or you could put a temporary tarp over the area where the cricket and the roof meet the chimney and seal the water out. The tarp should extend over the ridge and then down over the cricket and also around the chimney beyond the lowest point. If the tarp is properly sealed and water still enters then it points towards the chimney/ chimney top as the problem area.

It sounds like it has been a headache.

quigleybmd · 09-26-2006, 05:29 PM

1.Yes, one flue is for the oil boiler, and the other is for a fireplace.

2. It does seem unlikely that prior damage to the cricket was done
by leaking from the chimney ... but at this point I could believe anything. BTW, the prior cricket design was covered by a sheet of
copper. But as I mentioned, with the new cricket & roof, it's still
leaking in the same places.

3. Water comes in on 3 sides of the chimney/block in the attic.
The top & bottom (both long ends), and one of the sides. The other
side is dry (and always was, even with the old roof).

4. I'm pretty certain step flashing is around the chimney. I saw the pieces pre-bent when they were getting ready to do it. I'll have to try
and bend back some shingles to double check.

5. I'm going to try the tarp experiment the next good rain we get.
In the meantime, I've got a gallon of DEFY Chimney Saver on order, and I'm going to apply that.

Thanks.

redline · 09-26-2006, 07:10 PM

When you solve this mystery - post back as to what you discover to be the culprit.

thanks

redline · 09-27-2006, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quigleybmd

1.Yes, one flue is for the oil boiler, and the other is for a fireplace.

If the chimney was leaking prior to rebuilding it, why did the new chimney remain as large as it is now? If the mason knew that the chimney was leaking it may have been suggested to reduce the size of the chimney prior to it exiting the roof. There are only two small flues with liners that do not occupy the entire chimney. This may have reduced the size of the cricket.

3. Water comes in on 3 sides of the chimney/block in the attic.
The top & bottom (both long ends), and one of the sides. The other
side is dry (and always was, even with the old roof).

If water is only coming in on one side then I would focus on that side of the chimney. I am sure that you have looked at all avenues.

4. I'm pretty certain step flashing is around the chimney. I saw the pieces pre-bent when they were getting ready to do it. I'll have to try
and bend back some shingles to double check.

The flashing is helpful but the problem may be that the cricket has a very low slope. If the roofer did not incorporate the same methods on the cricket as he normally would with a low sloped roof then that would create a weak area for water to penetrate. The cricket area should not just have felt and flashing. The cricket area and the area around the chimney should have a glued down membrane or water shield to stop water intrusion. With addition sealant below the shingles as they mate with the flashing.

5. I'm going to try the tarp experiment the next good rain we get.
In the meantime, I've got a gallon of DEFY Chimney Saver on order, and I'm going to apply that.

Thanks.

best of luck.

quigleybmd · 09-27-2006, 05:23 PM

Some more answers to prior questions:

1.I peeled backed some of the shingles around the chimney (including ones on the cricket). There is step flashing, interlaced with the shingles. It extends about 2.5 inches from the chimney.

2. The slope of the roof is 5/12.

A couple of other observations.
1. Putting a level on the top edge of the cricket, it appears
that the cricket is actually pitched back away from the chimney -
ie. the center of the cricket seems to be slightly higher at the chimney
than it is at the point that it starts from the middle of the roof. That distance is only about 2 feet. Not sure if that could be a problem or not.

2. I put some brick sealant on today - not sure it's going to have
much effect though, because when the chimney was rebuilt 3 years
ago it supposedly was sealed; and the sealant I applied today didn't
seem to soak in much.

Question:
There is no seal where the counter flashing meets the step flashing
(right at the roof). I assume there's about a 2.5 inch overlap there.
When I pointed that out to the roofer, he said there would have to be a category 5 hurricane before any water could get up there and under the step flashing. Now I'm beginnning to wonder. Anyone know if that's supposed to be sealed, and if so how (solder, roof flashing caulk,
silicone caulk, etc..)?? It seems like it would be hard to get any sealant under the counterflashing at this point, because it's so close to
the roof (and the copper is embedded in the mortar above, so it's hard
to move without damaging it).

Thanks again.

redline · 10-01-2006, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quigleybmd

1.I peeled backed some of the shingles around the chimney (including ones on the cricket). There is step flashing, interlaced with the shingles. It extends about 2.5 inches from the chimney.

If the chimney was located at the peak then I would say that the 2.5 inches of flashing would be acceptable but this chimney is not at the peak, is a wide chimney and it has a large cricket. Considering that you have had past history of this leaking then the roofer/mason should have extended the flashing atleast six inches for a proper seal.

2. The slope of the roof is 5/12.

The slope of the roof is adequate. The slope of the cricket is far less than 5/12. If a slope of the roof or cricket is less than 2/12 then additional water protection is needed. If only felt is installed below and around the cricket then there will most likely be a leak.

A couple of other observations.
1. Putting a level on the top edge of the cricket, it appears
that the cricket is actually pitched back away from the chimney -
ie. the center of the cricket seems to be slightly higher at the chimney
than it is at the point that it starts from the middle of the roof. That distance is only about 2 feet. Not sure if that could be a problem or not.

This would make water flow back up under the shingles on the cricket.

Question:
There is no seal where the counter flashing meets the step flashing
(right at the roof). I assume there's about a 2.5 inch overlap there.
When I pointed that out to the roofer, he said there would have to be a category 5 hurricane before any water could get up there and under the step flashing. Now I'm beginnning to wonder. Anyone know if that's supposed to be sealed, and if so how (solder, roof flashing caulk,
silicone caulk, etc..)?? It seems like it would be hard to get any sealant under the counterflashing at this point, because it's so close to
the roof (and the copper is embedded in the mortar above, so it's hard
to move without damaging it).

Thanks again.

With this having a cricket there needs to be added protection. The roofer should have installed ice/water shield at least a foot on both sides of the chimney. Installed ice/water shield on the entire cricket and extending to the peak and also overlapping the ice/water on both side of the chimney

Did this roofer do the entire job or did his helpers do the cricket area?

The helpers may not have the experience to do a cricket this large.

The roofer may have had his helpers do the roof/cricket while he was away giving estimates or overlooking other jobs.

quigleybmd · 10-01-2006, 04:26 PM

I didn't exactly see them when they were working on it, so I'm not sure who did the cricket. However, they told me that they put ice shield all around the chimney and on the cricket.

Also, I just sealed the chimney with "DEFY Chimney Saver", and we got about 2 inches of rain over the last 2 days, and no leaks yet!! So I'm hoping it was coming through the brick. We'll need a longer/harder rain before I can be sure though.

redline · 10-02-2006, 08:01 PM

If they did install ice shield then that is the best way to seal that area.

Hopefully, the sealer will stop the rain from coming thru the brick.

You could use a garden hose and spray the roof area to see if the leak has stop.

Keep us posted to your findings.

redline · 10-05-2006, 07:32 AM

did the sealer work?

BReszel · 10-06-2006, 12:01 AM

quiqleybmd, I have a very simlilar chimney/crown as you do. I have the brick crown with about a 1 inch lip just like your photos, as well as the cinder block under the roofline. Over the last year we've had numerous leaks around the chimney. Water was dripping in pretty steadily about 6" from the chimney, I could see water stains on the tongue and groove decking in other areas as well, up to 10 feet away from the chimeny. I had serious water coming in at times during heavy rains.
We put a new roof on the house last month, did a total tear off. We reflashed the chimney, put iceshield up to the chimney, put a cricket behind the chimney, just like yours.
Yesterday we had over an inch of rain (Buffalo NY area), and the cinder block was wet inside the attic, just like your photo. We have had a lot of rain the last two months with no signs of moisture in the attic until yesterday.
However, other areas near the chimney that previously had the bad leaks, were/are dry. When I looked up at the chimney last night, outised above the roof, the entire sides of the chimney were soaked in appearance. This afternoon on the shaded side of the chimney it was still very damp even though the rain stopped in the afternoon yesterday. And even the sunny side had some moiste grout in areas. Also there is a lot of moss on the shade side of the chimney, on the vertical plane, which I would think indicates moisture being present.
I've had a least 7 professionals look at the chimney and roof before we re-roofed the house, everyone had a different answer to our problem. Chimney guys and roof guys.
My opinion is this; we had two problems. 1) we had shingle failure, due to inadequate ventilation and inulstion, which was allowing water to to come in throught/between the rain grooves of the old shingles. 2) we still have water penetrating the brick of the chimney, wicking through the brick and block and entering the attic. I think the inadequate crown allows water to run right down along the brick and soak in. That rain we had yesterday was coming down in buckets. I am going to try a penetrating water repellent for now until I can get a good crown built up there, and keep my fingers crossed.
Good luck with yours.

redline · 10-06-2006, 08:22 AM

quileybmd,

Did this problem start after a new high efficient furnace (boiler) was installed?

The newer high efficient furnace (boiler) may not warm up the bricks in the chimney causing the bricks to become water soaked.

fqp25 · 10-06-2006, 09:39 PM

Condensation problems occur with the newer high efficiency appliances. Some pros recommending not to run the exhaust through any masonry chimney. If that was the case; and the moisture penetrated the block, wouldn't that indicate a liner problem?? Because if there was excessive condensation in the liner, it should just fall back down, or evaporate, instead of soak through, right?? Just wondering...

redline · 10-08-2006, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fqp25

If that was the case; and the moisture penetrated the block, wouldn't that indicate a liner problem?? Because if there was excessive condensation in the liner, it should just fall back down, or evaporate, instead of soak through, right?? Just wondering...

I was suggesting that the brick was soaking up exterior water (rain). If the liner is defective then there would be other problems as well.

09-23-2006, 07:38 PM	#16
fqp25 General Contractor Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 37	water leaking through brick chimney From the interior picture it looks as if there is no step flashing. This should between each layer of shingles, then covered by the counterflashing. Can you peel back the shingles a little bit to see if there is any baby-tins. Last edited by fqp25; 09-23-2006 at 07:43 PM.

09-24-2006, 08:06 PM	#17
quigleybmd Newbie Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 25	water leaking through brick chimney 1. Yes, the shorter stainless steel cover over that flue is a combination damper/cover. 2. Yes, the cricket was original (although it was partially rebuilt when the roof was just redone ... apparently it had some water damage/rot). The dimensions are the same as the original one. 3. I'd like to do all 3 things suggested .. flashing under the crown, and crown extending beyond the chimney edge; but I haven't been able to get a mason lined up yet. The flue seams seemed to be pretty well sealed, but I thought some more caulk there couldn't hurt anything. 4. Water WAS getting in around the chimney (exact same places) before the roof was replaced. This has been an ongoing problem for >20 years. I had the chimney totally rebuilt about 3 years ago because it was in pretty bad shape, and I thought that must have been the source of the problem. But the new chimney didn't seem to help. In fact, it got even worse with the new chimney - and I was convinced it was because they had screwed up the flashing. It was almost time for a new roof anyway, so when I just had that done, I thought the new flashing, ice shield, etc.. would solve the problem once and for all. It hasn't. 5. I don't know about the 2 in. of flashing showing under that front right shingle. I think there is more flashing that extends out further from the chimney, and it's covered by shingles. I'm pretty sure they didn't skimp on the flashing. But I'm not a roofer, and I wasn't home when they did it. The leaking is all around the chimney, including at the back/top. So I don't thing what's showing at the front is consequential. The roofer who did the job is pretty well regarded - he's been around for > 30 years, and has a good reputation & good references. He's definitely not a fly-by-night kind of guy. And he's convinced the roofing/flashing is solid. You can't believe how frustrating this has been. Thanks for your suggestions.

09-26-2006, 05:29 PM	#19
quigleybmd Newbie Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 25	water leaking through brick chimney 1.Yes, one flue is for the oil boiler, and the other is for a fireplace. 2. It does seem unlikely that prior damage to the cricket was done by leaking from the chimney ... but at this point I could believe anything. BTW, the prior cricket design was covered by a sheet of copper. But as I mentioned, with the new cricket & roof, it's still leaking in the same places. 3. Water comes in on 3 sides of the chimney/block in the attic. The top & bottom (both long ends), and one of the sides. The other side is dry (and always was, even with the old roof). 4. I'm pretty certain step flashing is around the chimney. I saw the pieces pre-bent when they were getting ready to do it. I'll have to try and bend back some shingles to double check. 5. I'm going to try the tarp experiment the next good rain we get. In the meantime, I've got a gallon of DEFY Chimney Saver on order, and I'm going to apply that. Thanks.

09-26-2006, 07:10 PM	#20
redline Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,083	water leaking through brick chimney When you solve this mystery - post back as to what you discover to be the culprit. thanks

09-27-2006, 05:23 PM	#22
quigleybmd Newbie Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 25	water leaking through brick chimney Some more answers to prior questions: 1.I peeled backed some of the shingles around the chimney (including ones on the cricket). There is step flashing, interlaced with the shingles. It extends about 2.5 inches from the chimney. 2. The slope of the roof is 5/12. A couple of other observations. 1. Putting a level on the top edge of the cricket, it appears that the cricket is actually pitched back away from the chimney - ie. the center of the cricket seems to be slightly higher at the chimney than it is at the point that it starts from the middle of the roof. That distance is only about 2 feet. Not sure if that could be a problem or not. 2. I put some brick sealant on today - not sure it's going to have much effect though, because when the chimney was rebuilt 3 years ago it supposedly was sealed; and the sealant I applied today didn't seem to soak in much. Question: There is no seal where the counter flashing meets the step flashing (right at the roof). I assume there's about a 2.5 inch overlap there. When I pointed that out to the roofer, he said there would have to be a category 5 hurricane before any water could get up there and under the step flashing. Now I'm beginnning to wonder. Anyone know if that's supposed to be sealed, and if so how (solder, roof flashing caulk, silicone caulk, etc..)?? It seems like it would be hard to get any sealant under the counterflashing at this point, because it's so close to the roof (and the copper is embedded in the mortar above, so it's hard to move without damaging it). Thanks again.

water leaking through brick chimney