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Old 07-25-2013, 09:00 AM   #1
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Old water sealing paint peeling off basement wall


I'm redoing a room in my basement (house is about 50-60 years old) and I had to remove the drywall and insulation on the exterior facing, cinder block walls. I noticed the cinder block walls had been painted with a moisture barrier type paint (the kind with the gritty, sandy texture), but I'm finding a lot of that paint is easily peeling off the walls. Behind that paint, it was painted with either a plain white primer or a mildew resistant white primer, and that stayed on the wall just fine.

There are no signs of moisture coming in through the walls that I see, but I'm concerned that the final coat of paint peeled off so easily. Does that happen often with that type of paint? Was it simply not prepped properly? Do you normally have to prep for that type of paint? Is there water coming through that I don't see that caused the paint to break loose?

Just wondering what I should look for. I don't want to just paint over it without making sure it's okay. Thanks!

(Btw, this is one of those questions that always has me wondering which forum to post it in. Concrete and masonry?? Or paint??)

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Old 07-25-2013, 03:57 PM   #2
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Old water sealing paint peeling off basement wall


Guess your talking about Dri Loc. It needed to be applied to clean bare concrete.
If someone applied it over paint it's not going to stick.

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Old 07-25-2013, 09:28 PM   #3
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Old water sealing paint peeling off basement wall


its probably losing adhesion due to the moisture/water that's penetrated the blocks over the yrs,,, just because a material stops water to your eye never means its not wicking into the block just the same - only you can't actually ' see ' the damage that's taking place.

there is NO material that'll stop exterior water from penetrating any wall when its applied to the interior clean bare anything - makes no difference to water,,, just another fine product from the apron/vest guys,,, we NEVER apply any drylock ' type products to ANY residential work UNLESS we have a ' get out of jail ' card specifically signed by the client releasing us from any/all liability for its use,,, we further specifically state in our proposal the work is NOT guaranteed to work as per the label even tho we're experts at prepping the work area

Last edited by stadry; 07-26-2013 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 07-27-2013, 07:27 AM   #4
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Old water sealing paint peeling off basement wall


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Originally Posted by itsreallyconc View Post
its probably losing adhesion due to the moisture/water that's penetrated the blocks over the yrs,,, just because a material stops water to your eye never means its not wicking into the block just the same - only you can't actually ' see ' the damage that's taking place.

there is NO material that'll stop exterior water from penetrating any wall when its applied to the interior clean bare anything - makes no difference to water,,, just another fine product from the apron/vest guys,,, we NEVER apply any drylock ' type products to ANY residential work UNLESS we have a ' get out of jail ' card specifically signed by the client releasing us from any/all liability for its use,,, we further specifically state in our proposal the work is NOT guaranteed to work as per the label even tho we're experts at prepping the work area

That said, I took the above statement rather literally, and thought it incorrect as a generality; I knew how to apply an interior coating that would actual stick and prevent water percolation through the wall. I thought to post the information, but felt it might be taken as a "make-wrong", and so sent a private message. We had a gentlemanly discussion and I was urged to post it publicly as useful information, which I feel it is.

Water intrusion on the inner surface of a poured concrete wall is a common problem, and in most cases is is not economically and/or physically practical to excavate and apply an external waterproofing solution. In many of these cases there is something cost-effective that can be done from the inside, if we are starting with a clean concrete surface and the concrete is fully cured and chemically stable (meaning some years old). Most people have not heard of it, and not surprising for the company doesn't really advertise much-at-all.

I admit it does not work if the outside water-table is high, as the flowing water will just force pinholes in the coatings before they have cured. But, if the water-table is low, this does work for surfaces, and after doing it you can use 3M5200 to seal cracks and joints.

The key to making this work is a chemically-bonding primer made by Smith & Co. called Damp Concrete Primer. Just search for that name and you should get their web-page.

The stuff is a chemically-cured solventless polyurea that chemically bonds to clean concrete. If you apply any half-way-decent 2-part epoxy paint on top of it and later the same day (before it finishes curing), the two chemically bond and when the epoxy paint is fully cured you have a barrier to water, whose bond strength to the concrete is stronger than the tensile strength of the concrete itself. I've tested the adhesion with my Elcometer (a coating-adhesion-testing instrument) and pulled off divots of concrete.
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Old 07-27-2013, 01:43 PM   #5
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Old water sealing paint peeling off basement wall


The "wonder product" applied to the interior side of a foundation wall may stick and stop mass water for a small amount of time, but it will only make the concrete block fail faster, as it allows no where for the moisture collected in the cells to escape. Until someone finds a way that allows wet foundation walls to dry to the exterior, it makes the most sense to allow them to dry to the interior.......
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Old 07-27-2013, 01:52 PM   #6
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Old water sealing paint peeling off basement wall


' Water intrusion on the inner surface of a poured concrete wall is a common problem ' - i'm not so sure its common but it isn't uncommon

' not economically and/or physically practical to excavate and apply an external waterproofing solution - - agree which's why more pro wtrproofing salesmen ( ' inspectors ' ) hit the prospect w/this price 1st,,, after the customer revives from the initial shock, he's then given an alternative solution @ lower cost,,, that's call'd the ' 1st drop ' & many buy @ this $$.

' it does not work if the outside water-table is high ' - most houses are blt well above any local wtr table,,, however, there is often a false wtr table which accounts for most leaks,,, think of your bsmt as a ship's hull below the wtr line & its easier to comprehend.

' chemically-bonding primer made by Smith & Co. called Damp Concrete Primer ' - never used it NOR heard of it altho we often use polyureas - they aren't diy-friendly impo & there is a learning curve.

' Elcometer ' isn't found in many h/o's toolbox, is it ?
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Old 07-27-2013, 02:54 PM   #7
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Old water sealing paint peeling off basement wall


Quote:
Originally Posted by itsreallyconc View Post
' Water intrusion on the inner surface of a poured concrete wall is a common problem ' - i'm not so sure its common but it isn't uncommon

' not economically and/or physically practical to excavate and apply an external waterproofing solution - - agree which's why more pro wtrproofing salesmen ( ' inspectors ' ) hit the prospect w/this price 1st,,, after the customer revives from the initial shock, he's then given an alternative solution @ lower cost,,, that's call'd the ' 1st drop ' & many buy @ this $$.

' it does not work if the outside water-table is high ' - most houses are blt well above any local wtr table,,, however, there is often a false wtr table which accounts for most leaks,,, think of your bsmt as a ship's hull below the wtr line & its easier to comprehend.

' chemically-bonding primer made by Smith & Co. called Damp Concrete Primer ' - never used it NOR heard of it altho we often use polyureas - they aren't diy-friendly impo & there is a learning curve.

' Elcometer ' isn't found in many h/o's toolbox, is it ?
Thank you for raising a few points needing clarification.

I should probably not have used the term water-table, but when water in the soil next to the outside of a basement wall is higher than the basement floor, in many cases concrete porosity acts as a capillary wick and brings relatively more moisture up into the concrete, and it then evaporates on the inner surface and creates excess-humidity problems in the interior of the structure. The foregoing was a bit of a handwaving generality, but to anyone who sees seasonal basement water seepage, effloresence or other basement-moisture issues it's real. The analogy of the basement being the below-waterline part of a ship's hull is a very good one. Wood boats surely have such issues...

Conventional polyureas are applied with fancy equipment; two components are mixed and there's only seconds to get the mix where it needs to go before it cures. This is nothing for a DIY'er to get anywhere near.

This particular primer is VERY user-friendly, unlike all other polyureas I know of. You mix one part of it with two parts of water; it becomes an emulsion and you have more than half-an-hour to get it applied. The water evaporates and the stuff then slowly cures by reaction with the residual moisture and becomes the polyurea adhesive. There's no solvents involved and mixing a liquid with water is pretty simple. Having half-an-hour to get it applied makes it fairly user-friendly.

The Elcometer is something that professional applicators or coating manufacturers use to measure the adhesive strength of a coating to a substrate. No DIY'er would be expected to have one; I mention it because that's the name of an instrument commonly used to measure coating adhesion to such as concrete; I have one and use it in such circumstances; the test results are impressive, in that the adhesive bond of this primer is right-up-there at the limit of adhesive strength measurement capability--it pulls off divots of concrete before the coating-bond to the concrete fails. The way it works is that you glue down an aluminum fixture called a "dolly". The Elcometer then latches onto the dolly and has three legs that sit on the surface; there's a spring mechanism that you crank up until the dolly is pulled loose. The meter indicates the peak pull-off force that was achieved when the dolly came loose.

It's the manufacturer's job to develop something that works that well, and that company seems to have done that. They say they have been making it for about twenty years.

I trust the foregoing will be helpful to those looking for options to dealing with water-intrusion issues.
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Old 07-27-2013, 03:50 PM   #8
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Old water sealing paint peeling off basement wall


wtr only obeys 4 rules:
1 - it runs downhill;
2 - it seeks its own level;
3 - it always takes the path of least resistance ( rivers/creeks ); &
4 - it rushes to fill a void ( try making holes in a tub full of wtr )

we have their stuff, too, for pull-off & thickness,,, will be looking at that mtl as it may have applications for us - thanks VERY much !

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