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Old 04-18-2013, 12:09 AM   #1
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


Hi everyone. Yes, I'm a noob around here. I figured that since every time I "google" something I wind up on this site getting most of the info I'm looking for; I might as well join up and become part of the community!

Anyway, here's my issue. I live in a 16 year old bungalow located in south-western Ontario (Canada). Last fall we had some very significant rain and winds from the tail end of hurricane Sandy, which exposed a leak on the wall of our house that faced the driving rain. Unfortunately, ever since then we've had water seeping into our finished basement along that wall whenever there is a significant rainfall. So far this spring we've had some significant rain on top of the thaw and we've been "managing" the water infiltration by soaking it up with beach towels (as I have laminate flooring installed, which I UNinstalled about 4 feet back from the problem area), in an attempt to keep it from reaching and wrecking more of my flooring. This was working fine, but it's now time to fix this leak.


Unfortunately the "proper" repair which consists of excavating along the outside of the wall and waterproofing, etc is financially just out of the question for us. We have a deck which is built over the original contractor's concrete pad which is all right over top of where this leak is happening, which adds to the already high cost of this job. So, I've been seeking out my other options.

Last week (during a pretty heavy rain storm) I tore down some drywall, insulation, etc around where the water appeared to be coming in. Low and behold, I exposed a hairline crack which extends from top to bottom of my foundation and at that time had a steady (very small) stream of water coming from it.

In my search for an alternative to the exterior repair for this crack, I've spoken with many different building contractors, building material suppliers, basement leak "experts", concrete guys, and so on and I'm left with the following options (which I'll price out too, just FYI):

1) Exterior waterproofing (A LOT of money, a LOT destructive to existing structures).

2) A "water management system" which a few well-known and long-standing local companies do. A small hole is busted into my floor, then flashing is sealed around the crack and assures that the water entering is directed into my interior drainage tile. Nothing is done to stop the water from entering, it's simply "managed". The cost for this is about $800, plus drywall work. Comes with a 25 year "guarantee" (not sure I give guarantees on this kinda stuff much weight).

3) A polyurethane crack injection to "seal" the crack and (hopefully) stop water from entering altogether. I've researched other injection products (epoxy, different forms of concrete, etc) and come to the conclusion that if any of these injections are going to work (and last), it will be the PU product (correct me if I'm wrong!), so this is what I've settled on as an option. Within this option are the following:
a) Have a basement leak "specialist" do the injection at a cost anywhere from $600 to $800. "Guarantees" are anywhere from 5 years to lifetime.

b) Order a DIY PU injection kit and do the job myself for under $150 in most cases. I have done lots of research on this as well, and think that if I go this route I will likely purchase THIS KIT. I've spoken with the company and they were VERY helpful, down to earth, sincere people. Their story is that the owner of the company is actually the chemist who came up with this product (the PU injection stuff) 25 or so years ago. Their website has an instructional video from start to finish, and customer feedback that I've found has been stellar. So, I think this is the route I'll go if I try the injection method myself.


So guy (and girls), all that said, here are a few pictures of what I'm dealing with here. One thing I haven't come across too many answers about is the gap between my floor and my foundation wall. I'm assuming it's a "floating floor", but could/does this aid at all in draining leaks like this away? If so, the insulation (or whatever that is) seems to be getting in the way of this because it soaks up the water, then leaks up and over onto my floor. I've dug some of this stuff out just to see what happens. Most of these pictures were just taken now, as we're having yet another big rainfall.


Thanks so much for any help. Here are the pictures:


The crack doesn't fork off into 2 cracks at the bottom; the water is just dripping down a path from above that doesn't follow the crack...






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Old 04-18-2013, 03:46 AM   #2
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


You haven't mentioned what you're doing outside to manage the water. To get it away from the house. Any good plan for a house has to include keeping water from getting to the foundation in the first place.

The interior trench, presumably also with a sump pump, is probably the option to go with. If you've got that much leakage then it's likely patching is just going to cause the leak to move elsewhere. Better to have a plan to redirect the water, like the trench.

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Old 04-18-2013, 06:19 AM   #3
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


If you can't seal the crack on the outside, it will only get worse each winter as the ice opens it up progressively.
As suggested, an internal management system of collection and pumped discharge may be best long-term. And yes, try and keep as much water as possible away from the wall externally.
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:19 AM   #4
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


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Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post
You haven't mentioned what you're doing outside to manage the water. To get it away from the house. Any good plan for a house has to include keeping water from getting to the foundation in the first place.

The interior trench, presumably also with a sump pump, is probably the option to go with. If you've got that much leakage then it's likely patching is just going to cause the leak to move elsewhere. Better to have a plan to redirect the water, like the trench.
The property appears to be graded very well. I really think it's just an issue of the clay which gets saturated and sits against the foundation. The crack gives that moisture somewhere to go before it ever-so-slowly makes its way down to the tile.

Just to clarify, the house does already have a big O tile system with sump pit. I presume that there is big O on the outside as well as on the inside of the foundation because my sump pit has two 4" big O lines coming into it. One of them has a steady trickle of water coming from it into the pit when we get a decent rain, and also appears to have some crud build up in it (at the exit anyway). The other line, I've never seen have water come from it, and is completely clean. Not sure what all this means, but just trying to describe what setup I have already.
Regarding the patching (referring to polyurethane injection), if the product does what it claims and stops the water from entering at this crack, then wouldn't that water just make it's way to the tile, instead of through my wall? I have to imagine that the whole wall has the same situation of wet/saturated clay against it, and no other areas are leaking. See what I'm getting at? I'm not arguing, just want to show how I'm thinking (which could very well be wrong).

One thing I haven't done is dig down to the footing where the deck, etc ISN'T in the way and snake the tile/big O to check for obstructions. Perhaps I should add this to my list...


Quote:
Originally Posted by tony.g View Post
If you can't seal the crack on the outside, it will only get worse each winter as the ice opens it up progressively.
As suggested, an internal management system of collection and pumped discharge may be best long-term. And yes, try and keep as much water as possible away from the wall externally.
Understandable, but doesn't this only hold true if the leaking crack is above the frost line? Our frost line never gets more than 6"-10" deep around here (from what I've heard), and the crack generally leaks a good 4 to 8 feet below that. Would that water still freeze? And if the polyurethane injection product does it's job and keeps water out of the crack, then there'd be nothing there to freeze anyway ... right? Please, correct my train of thought if I'm way off base here.
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:41 AM   #5
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


I'm kind of surprised the "trough" doesn't take care of that small amount of leakage. It's hard to say how the water is supposed to leave that trough, but it should exit into the interior draintile somehow. Must be plugged somewhere?

As for your situation, I think the poly injection will work fine, as long as you follow the directions to a "tee".

As for the one drain tile bleeding water while the other is dry? Usually the only reason is because the one is slightly lower than the other, and water obviously seeks it's own level.
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:49 AM   #6
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


If you already have weeping tile into a pit then perhaps having someone run a video scope through it would help. At least to clarify that the system inside/outside the crack is functioning properly. If it wasn't then patching would certainly seem like wasted money.

The problem with most patching is you're doing it on the wrong side of the wall. That and there's still the issue of hydrostatic pressure from the water that's outside. You really do need to MAKE SURE the roof gutters and grading outside are NOT letting water get back to the foundation. Otherwise it's pretty likely you will just have more leaks or an overly humid basement.

Was the sump pit and weeping tile done during construction or sometime after? If it was done later (and recently) then it's likely this has been a on-going problem. Which points toward an exterior fix being the only decent solution.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:39 PM   #7
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


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Originally Posted by jomama45 View Post
I'm kind of surprised the "trough" doesn't take care of that small amount of leakage. It's hard to say how the water is supposed to leave that trough, but it should exit into the interior draintile somehow. Must be plugged somewhere?

As for your situation, I think the poly injection will work fine, as long as you follow the directions to a "tee".

As for the one drain tile bleeding water while the other is dry? Usually the only reason is because the one is slightly lower than the other, and water obviously seeks it's own level.
A note of interest that I've been watching over the last 36 hours ... See the "trench" between my foundation and basement floor? That was stuffed with insulation of some sort (which was drenched) before I removed a good portion of it yesterday (when I took some of those pics). Since then we've had a few more storms roll through with some really torrential downpours - especially today. In that time, I've been keeping a close eye on the crack. While it's still leaking, the water has remained in this "trench" and appears as though it might be finding its way UNDER the floor. There has been no water making its way onto the top of the floor. When I feel this trench with my fingers, I can definitely feel a seam where the bottom of the trench meets the floor. This is not sealed. Perhaps this is done purposely, so leaks such as this simply drain away and under the floor...? If so, it's obvious that stuffing this area with insulation was causing the insulation to become so saturated that the leak wouldn't reach the bottom of the trench but rather run over the saturated insulation and onto the top of my floor. What do you guys think about this theory?

I should also add that I took a closer look at my sump pit today. Namely, the lines coming into it. The 2nd line (that I said always stays dry) appears to be only about 10" long, and then it's just gravel (the base of the floor). I dug away at it to see if it was an obstruction, and it definitely wasn't. The line just ends about 10" back from the sump pit. So, that line is not an interior tile (unfortunately).




Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post
If you already have weeping tile into a pit then perhaps having someone run a video scope through it would help. At least to clarify that the system inside/outside the crack is functioning properly. If it wasn't then patching would certainly seem like wasted money.

The problem with most patching is you're doing it on the wrong side of the wall. That and there's still the issue of hydrostatic pressure from the water that's outside. You really do need to MAKE SURE the roof gutters and grading outside are NOT letting water get back to the foundation. Otherwise it's pretty likely you will just have more leaks or an overly humid basement.

Was the sump pit and weeping tile done during construction or sometime after? If it was done later (and recently) then it's likely this has been a on-going problem. Which points toward an exterior fix being the only decent solution.
I have been considering snaking/video scoping my tile. The problem is that I don't have a clean-out installed. Fortunately, there is an area along the wall that I'm having the problem with where there is no deck or any other obstruction. So, I could dig down to the tile there and install my own clean-out and snake the situation from there. That is, if this rain EVER stops!!

The sump pit and tile were installed when the house was built. That's par of the course in my neck of the woods. There's no way anyone around here would get away without a sump pump.

The roof has eves which catch all the rainwater. There are 3 downspouts total on my house, all of which I have put extensions on and assured that they drain away from the house (about 5 feet away). There is NOT a downspout on the side of the house that this crack/leak is located. The eves over the crack/leak drain about 40 feet away from the crack, and the downspout/extension point AWAY from this wall.
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:24 AM   #8
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


i doubt there's significant movement in the crack's size due to icing or frozen earth as usually heat transfers from your bsmt thru the conc & prevents soils next to your very fine home's bsmt walls from freezing [ hi-skool physics - heat runs to cold ],,, sure, 1 way to prevent wtr from coming inside is to ignore it & pump it out

we prefer to keep it outside by using hydrophyllic polyurethane epoxy foam grout & injecting it into the crack from the inside,,, this can be done when the cr IS leaking OR isn't,,, i'd suggest you retain someone who can properly do that work however it isn't out of reach for a decent diy'er to accomplish,,, the grout's probably $ 45 - $ 50, proper rotary hammer you can rent incl a 3'8" masonary bit, buy some bang ports for $ 10, & buy the injection gun for $ 100 - you'll never use that gun again so its probably a better idea to buy the install svce - then if he ***** up, you got someone to sue rather'n look in the mirror at the dumb*** who did the work,,, just my $ 03.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:39 AM   #9
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes8398 View Post
A note of interest that I've been watching over the last 36 hours ... See the "trench" between my foundation and basement floor? That was stuffed with insulation of some sort (which was drenched) before I removed a good portion of it yesterday (when I took some of those pics). Since then we've had a few more storms roll through with some really torrential downpours - especially today. In that time, I've been keeping a close eye on the crack. While it's still leaking, the water has remained in this "trench" and appears as though it might be finding its way UNDER the floor. There has been no water making its way onto the top of the floor. When I feel this trench with my fingers, I can definitely feel a seam where the bottom of the trench meets the floor. This is not sealed. Perhaps this is done purposely, so leaks such as this simply drain away and under the floor...? If so, it's obvious that stuffing this area with insulation was causing the insulation to become so saturated that the leak wouldn't reach the bottom of the trench but rather run over the saturated insulation and onto the top of my floor. What do you guys think about this theory?

THat's exactly what it's intended to do, which is why I said I was suprised it wasn't working. I can certainly see where insulation against the wall would divert the water's path though......

I should also add that I took a closer look at my sump pit today. Namely, the lines coming into it. The 2nd line (that I said always stays dry) appears to be only about 10" long, and then it's just gravel (the base of the floor). I dug away at it to see if it was an obstruction, and it definitely wasn't. The line just ends about 10" back from the sump pit. So, that line is not an interior tile (unfortunately).




Certainly not uncommon either. It's hard to completely understand at times, but water is more likely to travel through the stone below the tile than the tile themselves. Like I stated earlier, that dry tile is likely higher than the wet one, and the water is favoring the lower one........
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:36 PM   #10
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


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i doubt there's significant movement in the crack's size due to icing or frozen earth as usually heat transfers from your bsmt thru the conc & prevents soils next to your very fine home's bsmt walls from freezing [ hi-skool physics - heat runs to cold ],,, sure, 1 way to prevent wtr from coming inside is to ignore it & pump it out

we prefer to keep it outside by using hydrophyllic polyurethane epoxy foam grout & injecting it into the crack from the inside,,, this can be done when the cr IS leaking OR isn't,,, i'd suggest you retain someone who can properly do that work however it isn't out of reach for a decent diy'er to accomplish,,, the grout's probably $ 45 - $ 50, proper rotary hammer you can rent incl a 3'8" masonary bit, buy some bang ports for $ 10, & buy the injection gun for $ 100 - you'll never use that gun again so its probably a better idea to buy the install svce - then if he ***** up, you got someone to sue rather'n look in the mirror at the dumb*** who did the work,,, just my $ 03.
I'm with you on opinions re: water freezing in the crack.

As for the PU injection, this was one of the options I was considering:
a) Have a basement leak "specialist" do the injection at a cost anywhere from $600 to $800. "Guarantees" are anywhere from 5 years to lifetime (I don't trust these guarantees much though).

b) Order a DIY PU injection kit and do the job myself for under $150 in most cases. I have done lots of research on this as well, and think that if I go this route I will likely purchase THIS KIT. I've spoken with the company and they were VERY helpful, down to earth, sincere people. Their story is that the owner of the company is actually the chemist who came up with this product (the PU injection stuff) 25 or so years ago. Their website has an instructional video from start to finish, and customer feedback that I've found has been stellar. So, I think this is the route I'll go if I try the injection method myself.
I actually chose the latter route and ordered that Emecole kit the other day. It's a DIY kit that looks very easy to use. I figure that I'd rather be out $130 if it doesn't work, than $800 if I had a "pro" do the job. Additionally, it seems that the water is being "managed" quite well by the "trench" betweeen my floor and wall, now that I've removed the insulation that was stuffed down there...


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Certainly not uncommon either. It's hard to completely understand at times, but water is more likely to travel through the stone below the tile than the tile themselves. Like I stated earlier, that dry tile is likely higher than the wet one, and the water is favoring the lower one........
So if (one of) the purpose(s) of this trench is for drainage of small leaks like this, then is it supposed to be left free of obstructions such as the insulation that is stuffed in mine? If so, then mine's done wrong. If something CAN be used there, I have to wonder what...

As I said earlier, now that I've dug out a portion of that insulation, this trench seems to be doing a fine job of "managing" the water that's coming in the crack. It's still entering, but it's not making it onto my floor ... which, in all honesty, is completely fine with me!
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:48 PM   #11
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


Yes, that is the ONLY intention of the trough next to the wall. No insulation near it, or directly against the wall. There's better ways to re-create that currently, mostly because a trough like your's doesn't offer lateral support to the base of the wall. I would use the poly repair you ordered and allow the trough to stay open, and then close it back up.............
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:19 PM   #12
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


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Yes, that is the ONLY intention of the trough next to the wall. No insulation near it, or directly against the wall. There's better ways to re-create that currently, mostly because a trough like your's doesn't offer lateral support to the base of the wall. I would use the poly repair you ordered and allow the trough to stay open, and then close it back up.............
That's definitely what I'm inclined to do now. Even if the injection doesn't completely seal the crack, from what I've observed in the last 2 days, that trough will handle any remaining leak just fine (now that I've emptied it out).

Hopefully this isn't just wishful thinking.

Further, what really pisses me off is that one of the basement repair guys that I had out here (the one that wanted to install flashing around the crack, bust a hole in the floor, and direct the water into the tile or under the floor) was the 1st person to dig some of that insulation out and feel around in that trough. I thought it strange that he didn't say much about it except that the gap was there so that the floor wouldn't crack with expansion. He mentioned NOTHING about that trough assisting with drainage or anything of the sort, and simply went on to quote me $800 plus tax to do his work. What a POS.
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Old 04-20-2013, 05:04 AM   #13
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


is it possible what you're describing as a ' trough ' is what we call a ' slot drain ' which exists because they used a piece of wood as a ' screed form ' when they originally placed the floor ?the resulting space's often sold as a ' slot drain '

emecole's a good co imo,,, we used their mtl often & never had any trouble w/it,,, they also have experience ' holding hands ' w/diy'ers,,, just remember its best to seal a leaking crk than a dry crk,,, start injecting from the btm & work UP,,, we ' butter ' the crk w/hydraulic prior to inserting the bang ports

more often than not, floors crack as a result of improper jointing,,, often that slot fills w/' junk ' & fails to work properly as a result,,, our OWN floor crk'd due to expansive soils for a base as evidenced by higher floor elevation in the middle compared to the perimeter,,, as mentioned earlier, bsmt temp & humidity are fairly constant so that rules out expansion/contraction as a cause

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Old 04-20-2013, 09:12 AM   #14
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


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is it possible what you're describing as a ' trough ' is what we call a ' slot drain ' which exists because they used a piece of wood as a ' screed form ' when they originally placed the floor ?the resulting space's often sold as a ' slot drain '

Yes, it could be. Sounds like you'd know better than me, as I'm not familiar with this stuff at all. There's definitely a space or seam between the bottom of the floor slab and the top of the trough area that faces the floor (an area were water could definitely escape).

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsreallyconc
emecole's a good co imo,,, we used their mtl often & never had any trouble w/it,,, they also have experience ' holding hands ' w/diy'ers,,, just remember its best to seal a leaking crk than a dry crk,,, start injecting from the btm & work UP,,, we ' butter ' the crk w/hydraulic prior to inserting the bang ports

more often than not, floors crack as a result of improper jointing,,, often that slot fills w/' junk ' & fails to work properly as a result,,, our OWN floor crk'd due to expansive soils for a base as evidenced by higher floor elevation in the middle compared to the perimeter,,, as mentioned earlier, bsmt temp & humidity are fairly constant so that rules out expansion/contraction as a cause
Thanks for the confirmation on Emecole. I was thoroughly impressed by the communication I had with their representative before I ordered the product. Their website has a very concise instructional video on how to use their product, which I also liked. The kit comes with flanged T's that you stick over the crack every 6-8", then you seal around the base of those T's and the rest of the crack with a patch product they supply, then once that hardens you squirt a bottle of water into the top T until it runs out the bottom T (to wet the crack), then start the injections from the bottom until the T on top of that leaks the polyurethane.

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Old 04-20-2013, 09:52 AM   #15
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Need advice/opinions on leaky poured concrete foundation crack please (it's a novel)


we typically inject from INSIDE the wall by drilling holes at an angle that intersects the crack halfway inside the wall,,, we then vac out the dust, insert 3/8" bang ports, screw in grease fittings, & inject mtl thru those w/2part gun - e side's wtr & the other's polygrout,,, we butter the crk w/hydraulic to prevent spillage & direct the mtl to where we want it to go

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