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Old 05-28-2012, 10:47 AM   #16
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Concrete Patio...what type of mix: 4 sack, 5 sack


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Old 05-28-2012, 11:32 AM   #17
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Concrete Patio...what type of mix: 4 sack, 5 sack


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The "sack" method of specifying concrete is not very precise. Usually concrete is specified in terms of 28 day compressive strength, which is typically at least 3000 psi. How many sacks of cement are required per cubic yard of concrete is usually left to the concrete supplier to figure out, as long as they make the required compressive strength, the number of sacks of cement per yard is not critical, since some suppliers will use admixtures or fly ash to their mix. For a patio, 3000 psi concrete should be adequate.

The comment about air entrained is spot on, although I suspect that by default you are going to get air entrained concrete. Just as important as the 28 day strength, and harder to evaluate, is the quality of the workmanship installing the patio. The concrete has to be properly placed, compacted, cured and finished. The base has to be properly prepared. Poor workmanship will destroy the best concrete.

+1 to what Daniel said, compressive strength's are common practice,as opposed to the bag mix ,the reason being cement is the most expensive ingredient in concrete,and if you can reach the required strength using admixtures instead of cement,you keep your production cost's down which is a must if you intend to stay competetive.
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:53 PM   #18
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Concrete Patio...what type of mix: 4 sack, 5 sack


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+1 to what Daniel said, compressive strength's are common practice,as opposed to the bag mix ,the reason being cement is the most expensive ingredient in concrete,and if you can reach the required strength using admixtures instead of cement,you keep your production cost's down which is a must if you intend to stay competetive.
So I'm going to go out of business if I continue to pour straight cement mixes????

FWIW, as a contractor, the actual cost difference between a yard of concrete with 3000 psi (both cement & fly-ash) and a straight 6 bag (4000 psi) mix is $8.00.

If I pour a small complicated pour that's only 5 yards, and have 4 of us standing there waiting for the fly-ash loaded concrete to set for an extra 30 minutes, I've wasted far more than $40.00. Not to mention I've put down an inferior end-product...........

I find it comical that a few folks here can justify wasting money on fibers ($8.25 per yard here) but can't justify paying a few dollars per yard additional for decent concrete.............
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Old 05-28-2012, 06:40 PM   #19
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So I'm going to go out of business if I continue to pour straight cement mixes????

FWIW, as a contractor, the actual cost difference between a yard of concrete with 3000 psi (both cement & fly-ash) and a straight 6 bag (4000 psi) mix is $8.00.

If I pour a small complicated pour that's only 5 yards, and have 4 of us standing there waiting for the fly-ash loaded concrete to set for an extra 30 minutes, I've wasted far more than $40.00. Not to mention I've put down an inferior end-product...........

I find it comical that a few folks here can justify wasting money on fibers ($8.25 per yard here) but can't justify paying a few dollars per yard additional for decent concrete.............


Fly ash gives no strength to concrete,it will improve the density and the finishing properties,but thats all,and if you planned ahead you would have added an accelerator to speed up the set,and it's not an inferior product,it's just less compressive strength that more than likely was not needed in the first place.
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Old 05-29-2012, 04:21 AM   #20
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:37 PM   #21
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:41 PM   #22
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Fly ash gives no strength to concrete,

Better check again, as it sure does add compressive strength......
it will improve the density and the finishing properties,but thats all,and if you planned ahead you would have added an accelerator to speed up the set,

Using a non-chloride accelerator cost pretty much the same as the additional cement......


and it's not an inferior product,it's just less compressive strength that more than likely was not needed in the first place.
A 3000 psi mix is a far inferior mix to a 4000 psi mix, no matter where you live. In places like OH, where the OP is from, high freeze-thaw cycle action requires a lower water to cement ratio, which can't be attained easily from a garbage 3000 psi mix, or even a straight bag mix........
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Old 05-30-2012, 12:51 PM   #23
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A 3000 psi mix is a far inferior mix to a 4000 psi mix, no matter where you live. In places like OH, where the OP is from, high freeze-thaw cycle action requires a lower water to cement ratio, which can't be attained easily from a garbage 3000 psi mix, or even a straight bag mix........

Better check again, as it sure does add compressive strength......
it will improve the density and the finishing properties,but thats all.

Thats only in class C fly ash and then it's very little,it cost's more to haul it into the plant than it's worth, class F has none and there's very little fly ash used anywhere,it's always been a disposal problem for power generating co.'s

" lower water to cement ratio, which can't be attained easily from a garbage 3000 psi mix, or even a straight bag mix"

That's excatly why you use a water reducing agent instead of cement,and if you think your getting 6 bag's of cement when you order 4000 PSI think again.
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Old 05-31-2012, 11:09 AM   #24
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I don't remember the last time I hauled concrete without admixtures. Our cheapo mixes at least have mid-range water reducers (which is also a mild retarder).
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Old 05-31-2012, 11:35 AM   #25
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I don't remember the last time I hauled concrete without admixtures. Our cheapo mixes at least have mid-range water reducers (which is also a mild retarder).


He seems to think he's getting a straight cement mix, when the industry quit using them at least 40 years ago or more.
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:09 PM   #26
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Concrete Patio...what type of mix: 4 sack, 5 sack


hammerlane -

It looks very good!!!

As Daniel mentioned that the "bag" or "sack" concept is not the best way to refer cement content and it is getting very outdated. In Canada, Lafarge Cement is now bagging in 44# bags (20 kg) instead of the old 94# or so bags due to injuries and insurance (dictated by their version of OSHA). I assume the cost per pound of bagged cement per pound will be slightly more because the cost of bagging, handling and cost of the bags (bags are not cheap) will go up, but bulk cement will not be changed because it is never bagged for ready-mix concrete.

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Old 05-31-2012, 07:24 PM   #27
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He seems to think he's getting a straight cement mix, when the industry quit using them at least 40 years ago or more.
Your throwing an awefully big blanket out there right now. I can indeed still order, and to the best of my knowledge, receive a straight cement mix with no admix/fillers/slag/flyash/etc.... Of course, their QC guys could be lieing to me, and the mix design print outs could be BS as well but I guess I have to entrust my own instincts, as well as the info they provide.

We can easily order a straight 6 bag with 564 pounds of Portland cement.

Another common mix in that range contains 15% fly ash, but has a total of 564 pounds of cementicious material, 480 pounds of Portland, 84 pounds of fly ash.

A third, cheap 4000 psi mix would contain about 440 pounds, or less of Portland, and about 65 pounds of Fly ash.

All of these would fall into the "4000 psi heading", although with everything equal, the middle one would typically break around 4600 @ 28 days, the first at about 4300 @ 28 days, and the last at a minimum of 4000 @ 28 days.

When you say "the industry" moved away from straight cement 40 years ago, I think you're being ignorant to areas outside of what you;re familiar with. Here, the logistics of Portalnd cement delivery are extremely simple, many of the mines are less than 200 miles away by water. As such, 5-10 years ago when we faced a "Cement shortage", it really had little to no effect on us here, other than a temporarily inflated price due to "demand". In FLorida, it was obviously an entirely different situation, as it made more sense to ship overseas for the additional profit potential, thus the shortage issues down there.

Keep one other thing in mind: The company(s) you worked with in the past may have been dishonest with selling straight cement mixes in the past, because you can get away with it in warm climate, but you won't be in business long as a ready-mix supplier here in hard freeze-thaw climates by cheating on your materials. Don't think this isn't or hasn't been an issue here in the past, but you can believe it doesn't take Mother Nature long to expose "corner-cutting" on concrete in the rust belt...........
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Old 05-31-2012, 08:45 PM   #28
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Your throwing an awefully big blanket out there right now. I can indeed still order, and to the best of my knowledge, receive a straight cement mix with no admix/fillers/slag/flyash/etc.... Of course, their QC guys could be lieing to me, and the mix design print outs could be BS as well but I guess I have to entrust my own instincts, as well as the info they provide.

We can easily order a straight 6 bag with 564 pounds of Portland cement.

Another common mix in that range contains 15% fly ash, but has a total of 564 pounds of cementicious material, 480 pounds of Portland, 84 pounds of fly ash.

A third, cheap 4000 psi mix would contain about 440 pounds, or less of Portland, and about 65 pounds of Fly ash.

All of these would fall into the "4000 psi heading", although with everything equal, the middle one would typically break around 4600 @ 28 days, the first at about 4300 @ 28 days, and the last at a minimum of 4000 @ 28 days.

When you say "the industry" moved away from straight cement 40 years ago, I think you're being ignorant to areas outside of what you;re familiar with. Here, the logistics of Portalnd cement delivery are extremely simple, many of the mines are less than 200 miles away by water. As such, 5-10 years ago when we faced a "Cement shortage", it really had little to no effect on us here, other than a temporarily inflated price due to "demand". In FLorida, it was obviously an entirely different situation, as it made more sense to ship overseas for the additional profit potential, thus the shortage issues down there.

Keep one other thing in mind: The company(s) you worked with in the past may have been dishonest with selling straight cement mixes in the past, because you can get away with it in warm climate, but you won't be in business long as a ready-mix supplier here in hard freeze-thaw climates by cheating on your materials. Don't think this isn't or hasn't been an issue here in the past, but you can believe it doesn't take Mother Nature long to expose "corner-cutting" on concrete in the rust belt...........


"Portalnd cement delivery are extremely simple, many of the mines are less than 200 miles away by water."


So your telling me that cement is mined now,i think i've heard enough of your nonsense.
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:37 PM   #29
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"Portalnd cement delivery are extremely simple, many of the mines are less than 200 miles away by water."


So your telling me that cement is mined now,i think i've heard enough of your nonsense.
I's originated from limestone, which is mined from the Earth. Do you think it's purchased at Walmart, or do you actually want to add some substanance to the conversation??? So far, I think you're in in relatively deep and you're about to drown.........
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:19 AM   #30
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Perhaps he also thinks that farmers don't deserve any extra money, because we can all just buy bread at a store instead?

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