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Old 03-28-2013, 01:11 AM   #16
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Sure, well, according to California everything causes cancer some of the worst legislation and regulations start there.

I'm not going to argue that dusts- ANY dusts are harmless, even natural sand/rock dust blown off roads and fields contributes to silicosis, coal dust causes miner's lung, but the fact still remains that spun fiberglass wool insulation is made from GLASS, let's not lose sight of the fact that glass does not break down like wood dust (an organic material) does, and it breaks into tiny particles that penetrate skin and can be breathed in.
One of the causes of cancer is considered to be constant long term irritation, which GLASS fibers trapped in your lungs would be inclined to do.

Also keep in mind the huge companies like Grace (who it was proven in court knew about the asbestos in their vermiculite min and kept selling the vermiculite as building insulation, and when faced by the class action suits they filed for bankruptcy, reorganized and rebranded, getting away literally with murder)
Owens-corning, and Johns-Manville are no different, they have teams of lawyers to defend against suits, and to put the brakes on regulations, that is why fiberglass is not on that list as a PROVABLE carcinogenic material, because the word "provable" is the key word here, how do you PROVE beyond doubt in court that something causes cancer? All you can do is present evidence it may.

But no need to take my word for it, just read the New York Times, first note the predicatable statement from "industry officials"


By PHILIP SHABECOFF, Special to the New York Times
EVIDENCE GROWS ON POSSIBLE LINK OF FIBERGLASS AND LUNG ILLNESSES

Emerging evidence that fiberglass and other manufactured mineral fibers may cause lung cancer and other diseases is creating a sensitive, potentially far-reaching public health issue.

The evidence, although far from conclusive, is sending tremors through the fiber industry and Federal regulatory agencies. Industry officials, however, insist the evidence to date shows no health problem.
Now, recent studies of the health histories of workers who make fiberglass, rock wool and ceramic fibers, as well as tests on laboratory animals, suggest that the substitutes themselves may pose a health threat, albeit one of still unknown and heavily debated dimensions.



It's not even so much a risk of cancer as it is a risk of developing lung diseases from breathing the stuff in. I don't want blown in fiberglass in my attic, nor would I use a machine and blow it in and get all that glass dust everywhere, and have it filter thru tiny cracks and holes over time.
Any material that warns that you have to wear a respirator, gloves, not get it on your skin, clothes etc etc just to handle it, is not a good idea to be dumping into your home.




What is fiberglass?
Fiberglass is a silicate fiber made from very fine strands of glass. Today, it is primarily used for insulation in homes and buildings to replace asbestos.
How does fiberglass affect your health?
Studies have shown inhaling these fibers can reduce lung function and cause inflammation in animals and humans.1 A study published in 2006 found that, independent of other environmental hazards and respiratory problems, fiberglass altered components of the lungs in men working in glass fiber-reinforced plastic processing.1 Fiberglass can cause skin, eye and throat irritation. At higher exposure levels, fiberglass also has been associated with skin rashes and difficulty in breathing.
Fiberglass emits a synthetic material called styrene, which is a possible carcinogenic according to the IACR and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.2 At high levels, styrene can cause tiredness, concentration and balance problems, and irritation of the eyes, nose and throat. More information on the health effects of styrene can be found on the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) website.


  1. Abbate, Carmelo, et al., eds. Changes Induced by Exposure of the Human Lung to Glass Fiber Reinforced Plastics. Environmental Health Perspectives 114 (11), 2005: 1725-9.
  2. Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR). ToxFAQs for Styrene. Department of Health and Human Services. September 2007.


Is the Fiberglass in Your Attic or Walls Causing Cancer?

  • The National Toxicology Program first ruled that fiberglass is “reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen,” then revised the ruling to include only certain glass wool fibers (those that are inhalable), which excludes fiberglass;
  • Consumer groups are challenging the revised label, claiming the formula the EPA and NIH used to determine carcinogenicity diluted the results, making them look like fiberglass is safe when it really isn’t
  • When working with fiberglass, choose only formaldehyde-free varieties and wear protective clothing and a respirator; even better, opt for non-toxic insulation materials made from sheep’s wool, recycled blue jeans, newspapers or other natural materials

U.S. Government Says Fiberglass is “Reasonably Anticipated” to Cause Cancer – Then Changes its Mind?
Animal studies have shown that certain glass fibers can cause tumors in animals’ lungs and other tissue sites, while cell studies have shown that certain fiberglass fibers may cause damage to DNA. Fiberglass was nominated as a top safety concern on the synthetic mineral fiber list for the Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA) back in 1994. At that time, it was listed as “reasonably expected to be a human carcinogen" by the National Toxicology Program (NTP). However, in 2011, the updated NTP “Report on Carcinogens”i noted:ii
Certain glass wool fibers (inhalable) are reasonably anticipated to be human carcinogens based on
  1. sufficient evidence of carcinoge*nicity from studies in experimental animals of inhalable glass wool fibers as a class … and
  2. (2) evidence from studies of fi*ber properties which indicates that only certain fibers within this class — specifically, fibers that are biopersistent in the lung or tracheo*bronchial region — are reasonably anticipated to be human carcino*gens.”
What is important about this wording is the term “certain glass wool fibers (inhalable),” which by definition excludes fiberglass from receiving a carcinogenic listing. NTP explains this by saying that fiberglass is less durable and therefore less likely to remain in your lungs when inhaled, as compared to other types of glass fibers used for “special purposes” like aircrafts:iii
Why Was Fiberglass Removed from the Cancer List?

By removing fiberglass from the “reasonably anticipated to cause cancer” list, OSHA doesn’t list it as a problem for workers, which means dangerous exposures may continue to occur, particularly in factories where fiberglass products are produced or worked with on a daily basis. One consumer group, the National Association of Clean Air Agencies, is protesting the findings, pointing out that the formula the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and NIH used to determine carcinogenicity diluted the results, making them look like fiberglass is safe when it really isn’t.


There is also this from the Dept of Health, Washington State

Damaged or disturbed materials, such as fiberglass insulation, may release fibers into the air. Airborne fiberglass may eventually settle with other airborne particles as a part of dust.

A person may be exposed to fiberglass by breathing, ingestion, or skin contact. Occupational exposure is expected to be highest among workers who install or remove insulation or are routinely involved in building maintenance and repair. People who work with fiberglass should wear protective clothing, gloves, and safety glasses with side shields, as well as a particulate respirator. Non-occupational exposures, such as that experienced in your home, office, or school, would likely vary depending on the condition and movement of fiberglass-containing materials and airflow within the building or room.
Individuals may be exposed to fiberglass through home maintenance work or by moving materials containing fiberglass.

When a person inhales fiberglass, larger fibers may be trapped in the upper airway. Smaller fibers may be inhaled deep into the lungs. Inhaled fibers are removed from the body partially through sneezing or coughing, and through the body’s defense mechanisms. Fiberglass that reaches the lungs may remain in the lungs or the thoracic region. Ingested fiberglass is removed from the body via feces.

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Old 03-28-2013, 03:10 AM   #17
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I'm not going to argue that dusts- ANY dusts are harmless, even natural sand/rock dust blown off roads and fields contributes to silicosis, coal dust causes miner's lung, but the fact still remains that spun fiberglass wool insulation is made from GLASS, let's not lose sight of the fact that glass does not break down like wood dust (an organic material) does, and it breaks into tiny particles that penetrate skin and can be breathed in.
One of the causes of cancer is considered to be constant long term irritation, which GLASS fibers trapped in your lungs would be inclined



Is the Fiberglass in Your Attic or Walls Causing Cancer?



When a person inhales fiberglass, larger fibers may be trapped in the upper airway. Smaller fibers may be inhaled deep into the lungs. Inhaled fibers are removed from the body partially through sneezing or coughing, and through the body’s defense mechanisms. Fiberglass that reaches the lungs may remain in the lungs or the thoracic region. Ingested fiberglass is removed from the body via feces.
Well lets be honest here and not fear mongering. Once insulation is in the walls or attic people are not rolling around or kicking up dust of fiberglass so it becomes inert non harmful. you also forgot the IARC study the tulane medical study and the university of Pitsburge study. The Tulane medical center studied over 1000 workers exposed at high levels of fiberglass on a daily bases and found no increase in respitory problems. The IARC the International Agency of Reasearch on cancer. Showed that Lung Cancer death rate among fiberglass workers did not differ from those of the General population. And the university of Pitsburge has been doing a on going study of over 30,000 fiberglass workers over the past 20 years. and have found that they are at very low risk from getting lung cancer. so stop fear mongering. And FYI you have to wear a dust mask and gloves with Cellulose as well and it does carry preloaded toxic chemicals like Abestine and it has the same characteristics as asbestos. it is used to make news print and cardbord. still is in the cellulose that is blown in. That is a fact. not a statement.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:27 AM   #18
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Sure, well, according to California everything causes cancer some of the worst legislation and regulations start there.


That is funny.

Apparently being over 160 billion in the red doesn't though.

You got some great advice in here miguel. Trust these guys. Go blown in and go with cellulose.

Air seal first and use proper PPE (personal protection equipment) like a respirator/mask.

You home will really notice the difference.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:41 AM   #19
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Well lets be honest here and not fear mongering. Once insulation is in the walls or attic people are not rolling around or kicking up dust of fiberglass so it becomes inert non harmful.
That is true to some extent, but like asbestos we're talking about microscopic particles and there's probably no house on earth that has a hermetically sealed attic, there will always be tiny cracks and holes, and new ones open as houses constantly "move" due to temperature changes and so forth.
Many people use their attic for storage too and there's almost always a hatch or door or sliding steps to get in and out with.
The issue here with the opening post is that he needs to do the work himself as he said he doesn't have a lot of money to spend, that means he will be the one handling the material and putting it in and that starts the biggest exposure right there.


Quote:
you also forgot the IARC study the tulane medical study and the university of Pitsburge study. The Tulane medical center studied over 1000 workers exposed at high levels of fiberglass on a daily bases and found no increase in respitory problems.
You have to also look at the SOURCES of these "studies" and who is funding them, plus the fact that cancer can take 30 or more YEARS to develop, and none of those studies have gone on that long. Also these days it's rare to find employees staying in the same job 40 years as was common in the old days, a kid gets out of school and takes a job working in a place like a fiberglass factory, stays a couple of years if even that long and moves on, that's much more typical than starting with a company at 18 and retiring with a pension from them at 65.

We know positively that smoking causes cancer, yet the tobacco companies have teams of lawyers to fight lawsuits, studies in the past funded BY tobacco companies "proving" their products were "safe" are highly suspect.


Quote:
so stop fear mongering. And FYI you have to wear a dust mask and gloves with Cellulose as well and it does carry preloaded toxic chemicals like Abestine and it has the same characteristics as asbestos. it is used to make news print and cardbord. still is in the cellulose that is blown in. That is a fact. not a statement.
I'm not "fear mongering" I'm reporting what is out there, and I'll state again, the stuff is made from GLASS, and if you don't breathing in ground GLASS and feel comfortable doing so, go for it. No dust is safe to breathe in, but ground newspaper is going to be less of a lung damage/carcinogenic risk than breathing in ground GLASS!

Just google fiberglass insulation cancer toxicity and start reading on page one of the 330,000 results that come up and decide for yourself who to trust, the conglomerates like W.R. Grace who knowingly exposed millions to asbestos they KNEW was contaminating their vermiculite mines, went bankrupt to avoid paying claims, rebranded and popped back up.

If you want to read more about the two major fiberglass companies, you have to decide if YOU want to trust their "safety" claims etc, a few headlines should offer some clues about both of these companies and their history:


Feb 11, 2013 – Owens Corning was the first to manufacture fiberglass insulation and this ... was the defendant in roughly 84,500 asbestos-related lawsuits.

Owens Corning carcinogenic fiberglass

www.bigclassaction.com/lawsuit/fiberglass.php
Apr 12, 2006 – Owens Corning's Fiberglas ®, Fiber Glass, Glass Fiber and GlassWool: An Alleged Carcinogen That's Everywhere - The Asbestos of the 21st ...

Owens Corning could be liable in proposed class action despite ...

www.insidecounsel.com/.../owens-corning-could-be-liable-in-...
May 21, 2012 – ... Friday that fiberglass manufacturer Owens Corning Sales could be ... In 2009, two Owens Corning customers sued the company for fraud

Articles about Owens Corning Fiberglas Corp


articles.latimes.com › Collections
Owens-Corning to Appeal Personal Injury Award: Owens-Corning Fiberglas ... makers asked an Oakland judge to dismiss Owens Corning's lawsuit seeking

in re: johns-manville corporation - Caselaw - FindLaw

caselaw.findlaw.com › CaselawUnited StatesUS 2nd Cir.
Feb 15, 2008 – Johns-Manville Corporation, Manville Corporation, Manville .... In response to the growing number of Direct Action lawsuits, on June 19, 2002, ..... Among these claims were two class actions,

Encyclopedia of White-Collar & Corporate Crime - Volume 1 - Page 59 - Google Books Result

books.google.com/books?isbn=0761930043
Lawrence M. Salinger - 2004

Asbestos suits were most likely to name the Manville Corporation, which was the largest as- ... The decision was made to certify asbestos claims as class action lawsuits because individual ... SEE ALSO Johns-Manville; employee safety.



Asbestos-victim Fund Supported Catasauqua Action Is Part Of Johns ...


Oct 15, 1986 – Catasauqua is one of hundreds of school districts in the nation that have joined in a class-action suit against Johns-Manville, which was once ...

Johns Manville Bankruptcy: Find an Asbestos

www.weitzlux.comPrevious InvestigationsArchive
Video that offers information about Johns Manville's efforts to shield itself from asbestos related lawsuits, from LegalView: Information on class action lawsuits

Feb 22, 2013 – Johns Manville was named as a defendant in thousands of asbestos product lawsuits and has paid billions of dollars in compensation.

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Old 03-28-2013, 09:46 AM   #20
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That is funny.

Apparently being over 160 billion in the red doesn't though.

You got some great advice in here miguel. Trust these guys. Go blown in and go with cellulose.

Air seal first and use proper PPE (personal protection equipment) like a respirator/mask.

You home will really notice the difference.
LOL yeah well, you read the labels on things and it seems like they almost all say something like "this product contains ingredients known to the State of CALIFORNIA to cause cancer" so I guess if you live in Wisconsin you are safe, you just get the cancer in California
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:20 PM   #21
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first and foremost, AIRSEAL!

second, no, there would be no purpose to install insulation crossing the rafters if its not going to be in contact with the insulation presently there. There would be an air gap that would essentially kill the r-value of the new insulation. Why not blow in? And exactly how old is this home if the insulation is not filling a 2x4 beam. Regardless of what climate zone you are in, that is no good.
I have decided to do the blown in cellulose like you suggested. Lets say I have like an R-11 right now, if that. If I add another R-19 do you think I will see a difference as far as less humidity and any heat gain/loss?
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:50 PM   #22
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I have decided to do the blown in cellulose like you suggested. Lets say I have like an R-11 right now, if that. If I add another R-19 do you think I will see a difference as far as less humidity and any heat gain/loss?
If you add another R19 that would be about R30- more than doubling the present value, that's good, more is better, so as long as you have the machine and are doing to work it is the best time to just get a few more bales of the stuff and put them in, the only cost then is the bales, you already have acost to do the work and the labor of getting the blower home, setting it up, doing the work, cleaning any mess you make etc, so it makes good sense to just try and spend a little more and add more once.

You should see a significant difference in the heat/cold, I dont think humidity will be in any way affected one way or another. If you are in a warm climate the A/C does the dehumidifying, in winter usually there isn't much of a humidity issue which is why a lot of people have to install a humidifier in their heating system because the air gets too dry.

Just be sure when you blow the insulation in that you dont cover any vents up with it, if need be you can build a little "dam" around any vents out of whatever- thin plywood, or whatever works to keep the insulation from covering the eave or soffit vents.
You may need to build a little 4 sided "dam" box around your hatch opening if thats your access, to keep the insulation from falling into the hatch hole.
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:03 PM   #23
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If you add another R19 that would be about R30- more than doubling the present value, that's good, more is better, so as long as you have the machine and are doing to work it is the best time to just get a few more bales of the stuff and put them in, the only cost then is the bales, you already have acost to do the work and the labor of getting the blower home, setting it up, doing the work, cleaning any mess you make etc, so it makes good sense to just try and spend a little more and add more once.

You should see a significant difference in the heat/cold, I dont think humidity will be in any way affected one way or another. If you are in a warm climate the A/C does the dehumidifying, in winter usually there isn't much of a humidity issue which is why a lot of people have to install a humidifier in their heating system because the air gets too dry.

Just be sure when you blow the insulation in that you dont cover any vents up with it, if need be you can build a little "dam" around any vents out of whatever- thin plywood, or whatever works to keep the insulation from covering the eave or soffit vents.
You may need to build a little 4 sided "dam" box around your hatch opening if thats your access, to keep the insulation from falling into the hatch hole.
Our house gets very humid in the summer. Increasing the insulation would help as to keep out some of the warm humid air that escapes through the attic in the living area, right?
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:45 PM   #24
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Air sealing is pivotal in that case and I don't see any exposure risk from blowing cellulose and especially in an air sealed attic.

There is not going to be any dust circulating at that point.
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Old 03-28-2013, 03:56 PM   #25
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Airsealing is what will truly stop the air from moving from your home to the attic or vice versa. Insulation simply slows it down so the temperatures meet at a median.

Now, for as far north as you are, I'd recomment adding at least R-30 on top of the R-11, but that is something that can be done anytime. I think you would see quite an improvement if you did add the 6-8 inches. At least make sure you are up and over all the framing members and the layer is continuous except areas you intentionally avoid such as air handlers, access', ducts and what not.
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Old 03-28-2013, 05:27 PM   #26
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Old 03-28-2013, 05:45 PM   #27
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Airsealing is what will truly stop the air from moving from your home to the attic or vice versa. Insulation simply slows it down so the temperatures meet at a median.

Now, for as far north as you are, I'd recomment adding at least R-30 on top of the R-11, but that is something that can be done anytime. I think you would see quite an improvement if you did add the 6-8 inches. At least make sure you are up and over all the framing members and the layer is continuous except areas you intentionally avoid such as air handlers, access', ducts and what not.
As far as sealing around metal chimney chases in the attic can I use the fire rated spray foam, high temp silicone or acoustical sealant?
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Old 03-28-2013, 06:09 PM   #28
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As far as sealing around metal chimney chases in the attic can I use the fire rated spray foam, high temp silicone or acoustical sealant?
You need metal flashing and high temp caulk. The fire rated spray foam is only effective up to certain temperatures. just cut the flashing to fit the chase any way you wish, pop a couple staples or even metal tape to secure it in place and caulk the seams.
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Old 03-28-2013, 06:37 PM   #29
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Metal is easiest to use but fire rated drywall and intumescent sealants will work.
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Old 03-28-2013, 07:24 PM   #30
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You need metal flashing and high temp caulk. The fire rated spray foam is only effective up to certain temperatures. just cut the flashing to fit the chase any way you wish, pop a couple staples or even metal tape to secure it in place and caulk the seams.
Im talking about where the chase enters the attic not the roof.

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